Thoughts on Kyle Rittenhouse Trial?

[JoelD]

I've been curious to see what would happen in this trial for a while. I thought I'd see what everyone's opinions are here. I know Jim has dealt with trial's like this, recently even.

I was surprised to see him take the stand, rare on murder trials right?

What do you all think will/should happen?

[JimHow]

I haven't really been following it, I'm not aware of all of his charges but it sounds like an acquittal on murder.
The prosecutor looks like your typical prosecutor douche bag.
I was a little surprised they put him on the stand but I haven't seen any of the trial except the clippings.
He looks like a little right wing dink.
Typically we put the defendant on the stand when we are trying to generate a self-defense instruction.
We made the last moment decision NOT to put our client on the stand in my recent murder trial because I felt the evidence had come in well for our side and I didn't see a lot of upside, plus there was the risk that the prosecutor could beat up my client.
From what I hear the prosecutor did not really touch Rittenhouse yesterday.

[Racer Chris]

Rittenhouse is claiming self defense. However, in order to find something to defend himself against it required the illegal purchase of a deadly weapon and having his mother drive him across state lines with said weapon. It also required that he leave the location he had supposedly gone to help protect, and engage with protestors while brandishing his weapon.
While on the stand Kyle said he bought that gun because he thought it was cool. What it did was give him the means to act out his first person shooter fantasies in real life.

[marcs]

Fine, convict him of being a minor in possession of a dangerous weapon, which I believe is a misdeameanor in Wisconsin. The "state lines" stuff is silly.

If someone shoots in self-defense when being attacked they shouldn't be convicted of murder. Peoples' views here seem to be entirely determined by their pre-existing political prejudices toward the defendant.

[Jay Winton]

and the judge ain't so great either. I agree with Jim, he will be acquitted.

[Chateau Vin]

Fine, convict him of being a minor in possession of a dangerous weapon, which I believe is a misdeameanor in Wisconsin. The "state lines" stuff is silly.

If someone shoots in self-defense when being attacked they shouldn't be convicted of murder. Peoples' views here seem to be entirely determined by their pre-existing political prejudices toward the defendant.

I agree. He might be a dimwit, and as Jim said a right wing dink and what not. But the protestors were no saints either. As per court evidence, it looks like the mob threatened him to kill, chased him and the prosecution's own witness acknowledged that he brandished his handgun pointing at the accused few feet away before he got shot. The guy who was killed by the defendant wacked the defendant on his neck with a skateboard. The other guy who was killed was unarmed but chasing the defendant at best, but don't know how the jury sees it.

But in any case, the defendant might have made bad choices about getting hands on the weapon, crossing state lines to be at the site with a gun and stuff like that, but you can't deny the thuggery of the mob mentality and seems to me that few elements of the crowd were the instigators of the tragedy that unfolded...

[Racer Chris]

Fine, convict him of being a minor in possession of a dangerous weapon,

Everything that occurred afterward is a direct consequence of his actions.
His mother should be charged with reckless endangerment as well.

[Musigny 151]

You don’t go to a rally with an assault rifle and not expect consequences
You don’t go to a rally with an assault weapon that you are legally entitled to carry and not expect consequences.

The boy is a pig, he should be locked up for twenty years. His parents and the guy who gave him the gun should also receive serious sentences. And finally all concerned should be paying off the victims’ families for the rest of their fucking miserable lives.

[JimHow]

This judge seems like a real piece of work.
Man, I really wonder whether this country is gonna survive the 2024 election. I have serious doubts.

[Chateau Vin]

I guess that's what happens when judges get their positions either by nomination or by voting.

If by voting, the incentive for them is to behave like politicians, and if by nomination, the incentive is to pick a side to get the nomination and subsequent confirmation...

[marcs]

You don’t go to a rally with an assault rifle and not expect consequences
You don’t go to a rally with an assault weapon that you are legally entitled to carry and not expect consequences.

The boy is a pig, he should be locked up for twenty years. His parents and the guy who gave him the gun should also receive serious sentences. And finally all concerned should be paying off the victims’ families for the rest of their fucking miserable lives.

This is a disgusting viewpoint. Many people were armed at that "rally" (it was a riot, not a rally). People have the right to defend themselves against assault, which if you watch the video seems to be what occurred. Sneering references to "consequences" and expressed desires that those you don't agree with politically not receive the proper protections of fair legal procedures are thuggish and borderline fascistic. Had Rittenhouse been associated with Antifa and the people who attacked him been associated with some pro-Trump group I have no doubt you would be slinging your insults in the opposite direction and calling for exactly the opposite outcome.

I don't think the board is well served by threads about current political controversies -- Joel should not have asked the question (why would you post the question on a wine board?) and Jim should have deleted it.

[JimHow]

Oh Marcus, we have posted threads like this from time to time for 21 years. I just can’t get all upset if somebody expresses their opinions, it’s really not that “insulting” to me, I really am not THAT easily offended. It’s a wine site, but we like to think of ourselves as a little more than just hey what did you think of that ‘98 Magdelaine, we post about our families, and space telescopes, and all sorts of things. So you disagree with Musigny. That’s okay, no big deal. I don’t think that makes him or anyone else an asshole, merely because he’s stating a position on an issue of the day that will be out of the news by Wednesday. I think one of the reasons why BWE is so successful is because we oftentimes state our positions with passion — be it about wine, or politics, or whatever — without getting offended or needing to resort to insults. Somehow I think BWE will survive if we have a passionate little thread for a few days about a trial that has gripped the attention of the country.

[JimHow]

I highly value your passionate posts here, just like everyone else. I actually “welcome” when guys like you, Comte, and others challenge things I say, it makes it fun. I just don’t get insulted that easily, I guess.

[JimHow]

I’ll be interested in hearing the judge’s instructions on self defense involving the use of deadly force. Generally, you have a duty to retreat before exercising the use of deadly force (unless you are in your home). Here we have a defendant who certainly was more than willing to engage in the conflict, with a firearm he was not legally allowed to carry. I’m not sure self defense is a clear cut issue here, unless there are some nuances in Wisconsin law that are different from Maine and most other states. Are foreseeability and the defendant’s role in provoking the conflict issues to be considered by the jury? I haven’t watched the trial, I’m assuming the judge’s instructions that he will be reading to the jury have already been fleshed out by now, as the lawyers prepare their closing arguments over the weekend.

[OrlandoRobert]

You don’t go to a rally with an assault rifle and not expect consequences
You don’t go to a rally with an assault weapon that you are legally entitled to carry and not expect consequences.

Agree 100%.

And is it not the height of irony, If not emblematic of a psychotic society, that one could attend a rally that was likely to end in a conflagration, with an assault rifle, shoot people, and be allowed to declare self-defense.

[Tom In DC]

I saw some of the testimony. After he shot the first victim -- oh, wait, we're not allowed to call them that! -- people turned on him and then he got to clainm that each subsequent shot was self defense. After 9/11, people who feel they are under attack should not be expected to take it like sheep.

[Musigny 151]

You don’t go to a rally with an assault rifle and not expect consequences
You don’t go to a rally with an assault weapon that you are legally entitled to carry and not expect consequences.

The boy is a pig, he should be locked up for twenty years. His parents and the guy who gave him the gun should also receive serious sentences. And finally all concerned should be paying off the victims’ families for the rest of their fucking miserable lives.

This is a disgusting viewpoint. Many people were armed at that "rally" (it was a riot, not a rally). People have the right to defend themselves against assault, which if you watch the video seems to be what occurred. Sneering references to "consequences" and expressed desires that those you don't agree with politically not receive the proper protections of fair legal procedures are thuggish and borderline fascistic. Had Rittenhouse been associated with Antifa and the people who attacked him been associated with some pro-Trump group I have no doubt you would be slinging your insults in the opposite direction and calling for exactly the opposite outcome.

I don't think the board is well served by threads about current political controversies -- Joel should not have asked the question (why would you post the question on a wine board?) and Jim should have deleted it.

Hmm! Last time I looked from my “Fascistic” tower, Antifa weren’t killing people with assault guns. And if they were, I would condemn them just as harshly. But I am curious Marc, why you insult me for thinking the way I do, and what has happened to a society, where what he did can be justified, in any shape or form, be it Proud Boys or Antifa.

I am also curious how you concluded that I am wrong because I don’t like his politics. I don’t like what he did, and his sniveling self defense speech doesn’t begin to make sense when he arrived on the scene with an illegal loaded gun and killed people.

[JimHow]

I get the sense, Marcus, that you are trying to make the point that the far left is as bad as the far right. But I’m sorry, no, if that’s what you believe, then I respectfully disagree with you. The far left is pretty tough to take. But they are nothing compared to the QAnon crowd, who clearly want to destroy democracy. Those “rioters” <rolls eyes> were not armed with automatic weapons looking to shoot up people. It is the old false equivalency, no, I refuse to equate the sins of the AOC crowd with what is going on over in the far right, it is not even close. Where I WILL agree with you is that, as obnoxious as this little sniveling puke is (I didn’t buy the phony crocodile tears for a minute), he IS entitled to due process. Heck, I’ve defended Nazis, child rapists, alleged murderers… The problem for the little puke is that I’m not sure the law of self defense should protect him here. My guess is that he’s going to be acquitted nonetheless. And what the heck is up with that creepo judge, good grief. We are so doomed.

[OrlandoRobert]

I get the sense, Marcus, that you are trying to make the point that the far left is as bad as the far right. But I’m sorry, no, if that’s what you believe, then I respectfully disagree with you. The far left is pretty tough to take. But they are nothing compared to the QAnon crowd, who clearly want to destroy democracy. Those “rioters” <rolls eyes> were not armed with automatic weapons looking to shoot up people. It is the old false equivalency, no, I refuse to equate the sins of the AOC crowd with what is going on over in the far right, it is not even close. Where I WILL agree with you is that, as obnoxious as this little sniveling puke is (I didn’t buy the phony crocodile tears for a minute), he IS entitled to due process. Heck, I’ve defended Nazis, child rapists, alleged murderers… The problem for the little puke is that I’m not sure the law of self defense should protect him here. My guess is that he’s going to be acquitted nonetheless. And what the heck is up with that creepo judge, good grief. We are so doomed.

Well said, Jimbo. Not a fan of the AOC crowd at all, but at least they have their hearts in the right place. Cannot say that about the flip-side, i.e., the far right true believers.

[Claudius2]

Folks
I am not getting into an argument about the case itself as I have not followed it and it has not received media coverage here.
I am however wondering why a 17 year old is carrying an assault weapon in the first place, and from the few bits of data I’ve heard, it seems that many others at the protest (if that was what it was) were also packed.
My point is not specifically about the one person, it is that when you have opposite sides of any issue, you hope they don’t carry deadly weapons of any type.
On the left-right dichotomy, is there anyone remaining who is centrist, and can actually try and cool the divide?

[Racer Chris]

I am however wondering why a 17 year old is carrying an assault weapon in the first place,

Something I wrote upthread was incorrect. His mother did not transport him from Illinois, or even know he owned a weapon.

Apparently he had a friend who was 20 living in Wisconsin near where the protest took place. The friend purchased it for him and kept it at a relative's house outside of town where they did target practice. They took it upon themselves to enter the fray with the excuse that they were protecting one of the businesses in the downtown area.

His mother said she's sure that he would be dead if he hadn't been carrying.
I'm sure two other people wouldn't be dead if he hadn't been carrying.

[Claudius2]

Chris
Which comes to my point, when opposing groups are armed they have the rather unpleasant ability to use them.
I have never been to any protest or meeting in all my years where people were carrying weapons except the police or security services. And I prefer it that way. Putting such weapons however in the hands of the public is just asking for trouble and that is what happened.
Cheers
Mark

[Racer Chris]

Chris
Which comes to my point, when opposing groups are armed they have the rather unpleasant ability to use them.
I have never been to any protest or meeting in all my years where people were carrying weapons except the police or security services. And I prefer it that way. Putting such weapons however in the hands of the public is just asking for trouble and that is what happened.
Cheers
Mark

While I did learn how to use them for target shooting in my youth, I've never felt the desire to own a firearm for any reason.
Unfortunately many people who do own them really don't understand the responsibility that accompanies such a powerful and dangerous tool.
Its even more unfortunate that the american legal system currently insulates many people from the consequences of that responsibility.

[Michael-P]

Looks like not guilty on all counts.

[JoelD]

I guess I can't say that I'm surprised. The way the trial was going, and the way the video's showed the shootings and how the judge admonished the prosecutor. This struck me as similar to Jim's recent self defense trial.

Basically he was an idiot and much more brazen than he should have been because he had a gun. But once it came down to it, the actual acts themselves did appear to be self defense. Even if he enticed the attacks on himself.

Situations/escalations like this are why I personally don't own a gun, even though I support people's right to.

[JimHow]

The country’s going down the shitter, and this is a harbinger of more violence, political upheaval, and anarchy that is coming in the near future. I’m anticipating political violence, assassination attempts, and the Republican Party seizing the electoral process and usurping majority rule as a hapless, out of touch, woke Democratic Party leadership continues to fumble and bumble on. It’s going to be chaos by the end of 2024.

[OrlandoRobert]

The kid will now be - more so that even now - a far-right nut celeb!

[Blanquito]

I think someone can now wander on to the set of Fox News with an assault rifle to protect democracy from propaganda and gun down certain rightwing demagogues and claim it was self defense.

[OrlandoRobert]

I do struggle with the fact that he was 17.

[JimHow]

So I'm assuming at some point there were bind over proceedings to have him tried as an adult in Wisconsin, the Florida of the north.

[PghMike]

I think someone can now wander on to the set of Fox News with an assault rifle to protect democracy from propaganda and gun down certain rightwing demagogues and claim it was self defense.

Sure seems that provoking others then firing first could be considered self defense.

This is incredibly similar to an old South Park episode where hunters were gunning down exotic animals legally by shouting "they're coming right for us!"

[Blanquito]

I think someone can now wander on to the set of Fox News with an assault rifle to protect democracy from propaganda and gun down certain rightwing demagogues and claim it was self defense.

Sure seems that provoking others then firing first could be considered self defense.

This is incredibly similar to an old South Park episode where hunters were gunning down exotic animals legally by shouting "they're coming right for us!"

Genius!

[marcs]

To me the jury appeared to make the right call on the individual case in front of them, based on the video evidence and the trial testimony I saw. They deliberated for three days, under heavy political pressure, to do that.

For those worried about the direction the country is going, a concern which I share, you should also consider how violent riots such as those which were permitted to occur in Kenosha lead to situations like this. Many of the "antifa" out during the Kenosha riots were also armed with guns. Kyle Rittenhouse did not fire the first shot in the sequence that led him to kill two people. Whichever ideological side you are on, you should also be considering the role of your own side in legitimizing and promoting political violence.

[Jay Winton]

Prosecutor did a lousy job and the judge was known to favor defendants so the verdict was no surprise. I wonder where this kid goes from here?

[Blanquito]

Prosecutor did a lousy job and the judge was known to favor defendants so the verdict was no surprise. I wonder where this kid goes from here?

Regular guest commentator on Breitbart.

[Claudius2]

Guys
I don’t have a dog in this fight, am not interested in arguing about who should or should not be allowed to have a gun. I did not pay much attention to the trial itself but I was rather dismayed that the media labelled Rittenhouse a a white supremacist with no evidence, turned it into some race baiting campaign despite no black people being shot, and threats were made to jurors and the like.

All I’m saying is that I hoped everyone would accept the jury verdict and move on and talk about something else. I wonder if it would just be easier to get rid of those troublesome courts and their due process and just introduce Mao era Struggle Sessions and allow the mob to just beat them to death. That happened to tens of millions during the GLF and Cultural Revolution.

I helped a local friend translate and edit a family history in Fujian province. Her grandfather was denounced under false pretences. He was rated out with lies. He was then a mill operator. He was beaten to death by the mob at a struggle session, the reds guards burnt the mill down and confiscated the family’s house - and the local red guard leader moved in. Don’t want it to go to waste. The family was forced to live in a disused aqueduct and routinely spat on and harassed. Quite a miracle they survived but it made me understand why many Chinese accept hardship.

I find it disgraceful that every media commentator and social media user thinks they know better and that they should pronounce the guilt or innocence of everyone. During Mao’s decades in power, around 60-70 million people were killed, Mao in fact killed more than either Stalin or Hitler.

Santayana is correct. We just keep repeating the eras of the past. This quote is displayed in the Budapest communist terror museum along with stories and articles of how tanks and guns always beat justice and fairness. Maybe there has been too much suffering and persecution. If you disagree, visit Auchwitz Birkenau or any other monument to human hatred and suffering.

Sorry if I sound like I am talking about you guys - I am not. And the same ideology is evident all over the world.

[AlexR]

Marc,

I may have misinterpreted your post, but it does seem to imply that two wrongs make a right.

Rittenhouse went looking for trouble, and he provoked the demonstrators, but since he didn’t fire the first shot he was innocent. End of story – to some, that is.

I see this from outside the US, and it seems like a quintessentially American tragedy.

Why should a minor be allowed to buy and carry a gun? Is there any other developed country that would allow such a thing?
Is this what the American constitution is all about?
It seems like the height of perversion to me.

Surely, the young man was looking for a fight (why the hell else would he gave gone there, armed?), and he found it. He would appear to despise left wingers and, especially, blacks.
He was filled with hate and took himself for a vigilante, no doubt an avenging angel.

I think this young man’s responsibility should also be judged from an ethical, and not just a legal angle. By that yardstick, he is a guilty as hell, and epitomizes the right wing cancer that led to the election of Donald Trump, and may even lead to, God help us, his re-election.

Alex R.

[JimHow]

Joe won Wisconsin, the Florida of the north, by a mere 10,000 votes last time around. This time the Republicans in Wisconsin are taking over the state electoral process, even threatening to put the opposition in jail. Next time around the Democrats won’t be so lucky to have the election institutions hold up. Heck, though, the way things are going, Trump will probably win fair and square. It’s going to be a bloodbath in the midterms next year.

[AlexR]

If this isn't sick, I don't know what is:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-t ... 7dMJzU5CBs

AR

[Blanquito]

Prosecutor did a lousy job and the judge was known to favor defendants so the verdict was no surprise. I wonder where this kid goes from here?

Regular guest commentator on Breitbart.

Wasn’t far off the mark. This is non-repentant douche bag is taking an rightwing victory lap on Fox News and I see he even made a beeline to kiss the ring at Mar-a-Lago.