Classic Bordeaux - Who Are The Remaining Stalwarts

[OrlandoRobert]

A prior poster asked about Giscours. I do not think it is classic, nor do I think it is “modern” in the pejorative way that some of us use that term as applied to wine, but it does fall into that third bucket that Marcs mentions. It is well made from a technical point of view, IMHO, and actually tasty but not necessarily soulful. It’s a bit glossy and superficial, doesn’t really speak to a sense of place to me. I’m not a buyer, but bear in mind, my views on this Chateau are through the 2009 vintage. I have not tried anything any more recent.

Fair enough and I appreciate your take on Giscours, but TBH I've never found it to be "glossy and superficial" in my experience. If you have the opportunity, try the 2014 (which I've had twice recently) as I was not only impressed, but found it to be quite classical in style (to my tastes at least).
Cheers,
Ian.

I will, and thank you. I love the 2014 vintage.

Perhaps I fixated too much on 2005 and 2009 Giscours, but will give that 2014 a shot based on your comments.

[Racer Chris]

I drank a bottle of 1975 Giscours a year and a half ago that was wonderful.

[DavidG]

I like Giscours, and agree that since 200? it has characteristics of Marcus' "second wave" of modernity. So it’s not a dyed in the wool classic nor a "spoofulated" cocktail wine.

[JimHow]

Yes I totally concur on Giscours. Along with Calon Segur, Sociando, Leoville Barton and a few others, it has become one of my favorites.
I think it is "modern" in the sense that they get the most out of their grapes, but not in the sense that they are overdone, etc.

[JimHow]

A celebratory drink, I hope.

So 2018 La Dame has already been released?

Yes, I picked up six bottles in NH Stefan.
I really liked it.
I read your CT note, Racer Chris, it sounds like you didn't like it quite as much as the 2016.
I agree, it may not quite reach the heights of the '16, but I really liked the fruity, youthful punch.
The 14.5% alcohol was pretty pronounced but at least at this young stage it didn't overwhelm the wine.

No, Stefan, I was not celebrating.
We are going to trial on January 3rd, and the judge has gutted our defense.
I don't see how we're going to pull it off. And the prosecutor knows that, she wants us to plead open to Murder 2, which means our guy could be exposed to a 99 year sentence from this judge who has ruled completely against us on everything to this point.

Ah well, my three month fast begins tonight....

[marcs]

A celebratory drink, I hope.

So 2018 La Dame has already been released?

Yes, I picked up six bottles in NH Stefan.
I really liked it.
I read your CT note, Racer Chris, it sounds like you didn't like it quite as much as the 2016.
I agree, it may not quite reach the heights of the '16, but I really liked the fruity, youthful punch.
The 14.5% alcohol was pretty pronounced but at least at this young stage it didn't overwhelm the wine.

No, Stefan, I was not celebrating.
We are going to trial on January 3rd, and the judge has gutted our defense.
I don't see how we're going to pull it off. And the prosecutor knows that, she wants us to plead open to Murder 2, which means our guy could be exposed to a 99 year sentence from this judge who has ruled completely against us on everything to this point.

Ah well, my three month fast begins tonight....

How did the judge gut your defense? Or are you comfortable saying?

[robert goulet]

You know, on classic vs modern Bordeaux, I think things are more complicated than is made out. In particular, I think there are not one but two recent waves of "modernism" in Bordeaux. The first is Parkerization, or Rolland-ization if you like, which hit in the early 2000s -- longer hang time, more fruit selection, more extraction. People have their arms around that phenomenon and describe it pretty well. Most sophisticated Bordeaux consumers discount the effect of this on the wines and don't describe it as necessarily a quality improvement, rather the opposite.

The second wave, which is peaking more recently I think although it also started to become evident a while ago, is less discussed and I'd love to see more analysis of it. That's the increase in the "smoothness" of the wines, in particular the taming of youthful tannins and getting a softer plusher wine younger. Bordeaux producers have gotten incredibly good at this, and at the same time are reducing extraction somewhat so the cruder elements of over-extraction are gone. Over the 2012-2016 period it seemed like a lot of producers were also reducing alcohol, but in 2015 and 2018-2020 they seem to have returned to being comfortable with high alcohol levels in these modern wines.

A lot of critics and sophisticated consumers (Levenberg is one, Ian has this tendency as well) actually really seem to like this most recent take on Bordeaux, and regularly are describing newer Bordeaux as the "best Bordeaux ever made". But in my (somewhat limited) experience these wines can feel somewhat engineered, and this is also not exactly "classical" Bordeaux. It's not as crude as Parkerization but it does feel in some cases like a more international type style to me. The jury also seems out on how exactly it will affect aging. I would love to see someone knowledgeable about wine technology give a take on what has happened to Bordeaux over the past 10 years or so, post-Parkerization. It's not really a return to the classical style.

This second wave to me sounds like what Jim was describing sometime back...how current winemaking techniques (whatever they are) are creating cookie cutter'esque wines, where today's wines being produced are almost a facsimile of the others, and I have to agree...They have begun tasting the same, less sense of place, a bit glossy, less classic character.

[OrlandoRobert]

BobbyG, we popped a 2009 Giscours together many years ago, but I don’t recall your thoughts on it.

[JimHow]

JimHow wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:03 pm
A celebratory drink, I hope.

So 2018 La Dame has already been released?
Yes, I picked up six bottles in NH Stefan.
I really liked it.
I read your CT note, Racer Chris, it sounds like you didn't like it quite as much as the 2016.
I agree, it may not quite reach the heights of the '16, but I really liked the fruity, youthful punch.
The 14.5% alcohol was pretty pronounced but at least at this young stage it didn't overwhelm the wine.

No, Stefan, I was not celebrating.
We are going to trial on January 3rd, and the judge has gutted our defense.
I don't see how we're going to pull it off. And the prosecutor knows that, she wants us to plead open to Murder 2, which means our guy could be exposed to a 99 year sentence from this judge who has ruled completely against us on everything to this point.

Ah well, my three month fast begins tonight....
How did the judge gut your defense? Or are you comfortable saying?

I don't mind discussing what is public record, Marcus.
He has denied 11 of our 12 motions, we are waiting for a decision on the last one, on the issue of whether we get to present evidence of alternate suspects.
Yesterday he denied the joint motion of the state and defense to continue the case due to high Covid rates in Alaska.
We are required to do a 7 week trial with masks on. A mistrial will be declared if any of the parties contract Covid.
We will have 4 alternate jurors, but the judge doesn't know what the protocol will be if any of the jurors, court officers, clerks, etc., contract Covid.
And on top of all that... my client has contracted Covid, he is in isolation for two weeks in the Fairbanks Correctional Center.
It is insane that we are going to trial in January in a case of this complexity and logistical complications with dozens of witnesses, expert witnesses, people flying in from the lower 48, etc., etc.
On top of all that, I can't drink wine now for the next three months.

[robert goulet]

BobbyG, we popped a 2009 Giscours together many years ago, but I don’t recall your thoughts on it.

Def. not an atypical 2009...didn't seem ripe at all, in fact maybe a tad underripe....then I popped one a few years after and it was delish, but not the elegant demure style, but rather masculine.

[JoelD]

Pomerol
Vieux Chateau Certan
Trotanoy
Bourgneuf
L’Evangile

I see you listed L'Evangile under the classics. I haven't had anything younger than 2004. But i've been buying and researching some more recent vintages such as 2012, 2014, 2016.

Has anyone tried these? Do they still fall under classic? I've heard the 2015 described as very spoofy. And given my experience with the 2015 VCC, maybe that was an outlier product of a vintage that most of the classicists here aren't that fond of?

[s*d*r]

We are going to trial on January 3rd, and the judge has gutted our defense.

He has denied 11 of our 12 motions, we are waiting for a decision on the last one, on the issue of whether we get to present evidence of alternate suspects.

It is insane that we are going to trial in January in a case of this complexity and logistical complications with dozens of witnesses, expert witnesses, people flying in from the lower 48, etc., etc.

Grounds for an appeal?

[JimHow]

JimHow wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:14 am

We are going to trial on January 3rd, and the judge has gutted our defense.

He has denied 11 of our 12 motions, we are waiting for a decision on the last one, on the issue of whether we get to present evidence of alternate suspects.

It is insane that we are going to trial in January in a case of this complexity and logistical complications with dozens of witnesses, expert witnesses, people flying in from the lower 48, etc., etc.
Grounds for an appeal?
Stu

Yeah we were just talking about that this afternoon, Stu.
The biggest issue he'll be exposing himself on, in our opinion, is if he doesn't allow us to present alternate suspects.
Alaska law is quite liberal on that issue, and I he is clearly thinking long and hard on it.

As expected, he ruled against us on the Fourth Amendment issue of whether, without a warrant, the Alaska state troopers could search DNA databases... i.e., the "Golden State Killer" issue.

That is the issue that has everyone watching our case, because a lot of legal experts think this is the case that could go up to SCOTUS on that issue:

https://downeast.com/issues-politics/dna-evidence/

The New Yorker did a big feature last week on CeCe Moore, the "Genetic Detective" who "solved" this case.
I got to cross-examine her at an earlier hearing last spring....

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021 ... h-a-killer

It's a brave new world!

[OrlandoRobert]

Pomerol
Vieux Chateau Certan
Trotanoy
Bourgneuf
L’Evangile

I see you listed L'Evangile under the classics. I haven't had anything younger than 2004. But i've been buying and researching some more recent vintages such as 2012, 2014, 2016.

Has anyone tried these? Do they still fall under classic? I've heard the 2015 described as very spoofy. And given my experience with the 2015 VCC, maybe that was an outlier product of a vintage that most of the classicists here aren't that fond of?

I would not use 2015 as the measuring stick, that vintage sucks. I will acknowledge that I have not had one more recent than 12. Did buy but have not tried the 2014.

[Blanquito]

I was very late to the game, but 2014 is the shizzle. If a chateau stunk it up in that vintage, it is beyond redemption in my world.

Whereas if they whiffed in 2015, I’m ready to overlook that given how excessive that vintage seems (so far) to be.

[OrlandoRobert]

I was very late to the game, but 2014 is the shizzle. If a chateau stunk it up in that vintage, it is beyond redemption in my world.

Whereas if they whiffed in 2015, I’m ready to overlook that given how excessive that vintage seems (so far) to be.

I was screaming 2014 from the rooftops, sadly I’m just a country yak palate!

[JimHow]

I have been screaming from Day One that 2014 is an excellent to outstanding vintage. But I guess my palate doesn’t align with yours. <rolls eyes> More recently, I have been screaming that it is just a flat out outstanding vintage, on BOTH banks of the river. My cellar, far more dominated by 2014 than any other vintage, bears this out. Gerry and I got some insane 2014 deals in the tax free Granite State. Sipping on a 2014 Clerc Milon tonight. I have previously rated this 97 points. I am reassessing it… I rate it 97+ points. It is absolutely, absolutely stunning. As classic a Pauillac as I’ve tasted perhaps since the 89 Lynch, dry, cedar, lead pencil, always lots of sediment, just stunning Pauillac. Brilliant. I bought three cases, I wish I had bought 30 at the steal that we got it for. Thank you again JC!

[JoelD]

I would not use 2015 as the measuring stick, that vintage sucks. I will acknowledge that I have not had one more recent than 12. Did buy but have not tried the 2014.

The 2012 is quite good then? Worth the $130ish price tag? I actually think I tried it at a tasting before and enjoyed but can barely remember.

[Nicklasss]

I have been screaming from Day One that 2014 is an excellent to outstanding vintage. But I guess my palate doesn’t align with yours. <rolls eyes> More recently, I have been screaming that it is just a flat out outstanding vintage, on BOTH banks of the river. My cellar, far more dominated by 2014 than any other vintage, bears this out. Gerry and I got some insane 2014 deals in the tax free Granite State. Sipping on a 2014 Clerc Milon tonight. I have previously rated this 97 points. I am reassessing it… I rate it 97+ points. It is absolutely, absolutely stunning. As classic a Pauillac as I’ve tasted perhaps since the 89 Lynch, dry, cedar, lead pencil, always lots of sediment, just stunning Pauillac. Brilliant. I bought three cases, I wish I had bought 30 at the steal that we got it for. Thank you again JC!

Wow! I'm tempted to open a 2016 Clerc Milon... as i don't have any 2014.

[JimHow]

Stunning. 2014 Clerc Milon is stunning.

[JimHow]

Approaching 89 Lynch territory. Not there, but in the same solar system.

[OrlandoRobert]

Stunning. 2014 Clerc Milon is stunning.

Damnit Jim! Damnit.

I so scored on this vintage, and so blew it with the baby Moutons. How da fuk did I not but any!?!

They were dirt (as in, sous bois) cheap!

[robert goulet]

2014 d'armailhac was surprisingly average

[JimHow]

JCkba tipped me off, he said, Jim, you gotta try the 2014 Clerc Milon. And it just so happen he did that when the NH sale was going on, we got it for like, what, low $30s. I tried one, and then bought three cases. And each one has been more stunning than the next.

[Blanquito]

I have been screaming from Day One that 2014 is an excellent to outstanding vintage. But I guess my palate doesn’t align with yours. <rolls eyes> More recently, I have been screaming that it is just a flat out outstanding vintage, on BOTH banks of the river. My cellar, far more dominated by 2014 than any other vintage, bears this out. Gerry and I got some insane 2014 deals in the tax free Granite State. Sipping on a 2014 Clerc Milon tonight. I have previously rated this 97 points. I am reassessing it… I rate it 97+ points. It is absolutely, absolutely stunning. As classic a Pauillac as I’ve tasted perhaps since the 89 Lynch, dry, cedar, lead pencil, always lots of sediment, just stunning Pauillac. Brilliant. I bought three cases, I wish I had bought 30 at the steal that we got it for. Thank you again JC!

Jim was the first and loudest person I noticed proclaiming the greatness of the 2014 vintage, with Robert a close second. I can still taste that awesome 2014 Calon Segur Jim opened with me and Winona Chief in SF in 2017.

I don’t really know why, but I bought very little 2014, just 6 Leoville Barton and 3 Haut Bailly, and nowadays the prices are no where near as attractive as they were on release.

[Gerry M.]

I have been screaming from Day One that 2014 is an excellent to outstanding vintage. But I guess my palate doesn’t align with yours. <rolls eyes> More recently, I have been screaming that it is just a flat out outstanding vintage, on BOTH banks of the river. My cellar, far more dominated by 2014 than any other vintage, bears this out. Gerry and I got some insane 2014 deals in the tax free Granite State. Sipping on a 2014 Clerc Milon tonight. I have previously rated this 97 points. I am reassessing it… I rate it 97+ points. It is absolutely, absolutely stunning. As classic a Pauillac as I’ve tasted perhaps since the 89 Lynch, dry, cedar, lead pencil, always lots of sediment, just stunning Pauillac. Brilliant. I bought three cases, I wish I had bought 30 at the steal that we got it for. Thank you again JC!

Due to the insight and overall great palate of BWE I was fortunate enough to stock up on 2014 in NH with 142 bottles, not including what I've ready enjoyed. I only wish I bought more! Luckily I still have 8 bottles of Ch Clerc Milon after buying a case of it initially and have loved every one so far.

Jim and I were fortunate to take advantage of a perfect storm in NH for pricing. First, NH as usual, failed to initially competively price the vintage and it languished on the shelves. After sitting for months the knee jerk reaction was to then slash prices well below market. Second, the price cut coincided with a gift card promo of spend $150 and get a $25 gift card free. The result was a net overall pricing on the vintage of 30 to 40% below market, just nuts. Also, as Jim eluded to, NH has no additional sales tax to deal with.

I have to laugh, everyone must to tired of hearing Jim and I go on about killing it on 2014 but 20 years from now Jim will still be raving about 2014 and wondering which bottle he should open at lunch with a tuna sandwich.

[un bureaucrate]

Hi all — I’ve read through this thread a few times over the last several months, and something finally occurred to me…

For all the Bordeaux wine spreadsheets over the years, has anybody ever made one for abv? Structured by Chateau/vintage on the horizontal axis, abv on the vertical axis? Since there’s a kind of correlation between low abv = classic, high abv = modern (obviously an oversimplification, it does not account for stylistic changes, but there is a connection, no?), I thought I’d ask here.

If not, maybe I’ll whip one up. Could be useful for those of us who need a quick reference for sub-14% wines.

[JoelD]

Hi all — I’ve read through this thread a few times over the last several months, and something finally occurred to me…

For all the Bordeaux wine spreadsheets over the years, has anybody ever made one for abv? Structured by Chateau/vintage on the horizontal axis, abv on the vertical axis? Since there’s a kind of correlation between low abv = classic, high abv = modern (obviously an oversimplification, it does not account for stylistic changes, but there is a connection, no?), I thought I’d ask here.

If not, maybe I’ll whip one up. Could be useful for those of us who need a quick reference for sub-14% wines.

This is a very interesting idea. Clearly a lot of correlation. I'd love to see what you whip up. Although finding the exact alcohol on different wines can be tricky. (even if you have the bottle in front of you, I've seen 2016 pontet with diff ABV listed on different bottles, kinda nuts). Either way i'm sure it would be quite informative on the vintages post 2000.

[Comte Flaneur]

Hi all — I’ve read through this thread a few times over the last several months, and something finally occurred to me…

For all the Bordeaux wine spreadsheets over the years, has anybody ever made one for abv? Structured by Chateau/vintage on the horizontal axis, abv on the vertical axis? Since there’s a kind of correlation between low abv = classic, high abv = modern (obviously an oversimplification, it does not account for stylistic changes, but there is a connection, no?), I thought I’d ask here.

If not, maybe I’ll whip one up. Could be useful for those of us who need a quick reference for sub-14% wines.

This is a very interesting idea. Clearly a lot of correlation. I'd love to see what you whip up. Although finding the exact alcohol on different wines can be tricky. (even if you have the bottle in front of you, I've seen 2016 pontet with diff ABV listed on different bottles, kinda nuts). Either way i'm sure it would be quite informative on the vintages post 2000.

Seconded ub - a brilliant idea.

Haut Brion, BWErs favourite FG, would be near the very top. Likewise La Mission.

Can’t wait to see what you come up with. You might want to use a five or ten year moving average of alcohol in each wine as claimed subject to the usual doubts.

If you had the time what would also be interesting would be the change in alcohol from some benchmark,perhaps from the 1980s. Where has ABV gone up most (and why??) Again I suspect Haut Brion would be in the hot seat again.

[AKR]

I'm not sure how totally reliable label abv% is...there is some wiggle room there. And over very long periods of time, there is even some evaporation. We had a 70 l'Evangile ago some years with a stated abv of 11% but I suspect it was down in the ten handles given all the time that had passed by!

Additionally there was some distortion when the producers had incentive to shade the numbers because of US tariff rules for a few vintages.

I think a reasonable proxy (for what one is trying hunt for) would simply be points. Low scoring wines are more likely to be less ripe, less rich.

Or hunt down Gilman or Coates favorites.

[DavidG]

What's the legally allowed error for labeled ABV? And how compliant and/or accurate are they? A variation of +/- 1% could hide or exaggerate differences.

I believe that Canada actually tests ABV on imports. Is that data publicly available?

Would also be interesting to look at ABV over time in addition to comparing Chateaux.

[Musigny 151]

In the end, I go back to Potter Stewart’s “I know [spoofy wine] when I see it.”

And I know L’Evangile and Cos.

[JoelD]

In the end, I go back to Potter Stewart’s “I know [spoofy wine] when I see it.”

And I know L’Evangile and Cos.

Around what vintage would you say L'Evangile started being spoofy? I had the 2004 recently and it was anything but. Glad I didn't go that long on the 2014/2016 if so.

[Musigny 151]

Jeff Leve does a good job with the history.

https://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/bo ... levangile/

I can’t remember when I began to not like the wines, but I certainly had problems with 2005.

[greatbxfreak]

It's worth mentioning that L'Evangile changed its winemaking team last year, so new guys, actually a woman winemaker and a male technical director, made 2021. 2021 is scaled-down and not ageing in 100% new oak.

[Claret]

What's the legally allowed error for labeled ABV? And how compliant and/or accurate are they? A variation of +/- 1% could hide or exaggerate differences.

Lots of wiggle room:

Does the alcohol content stated on the label need to indicate the exact alcohol content of the product, or does TTB allow a tolerance?

Alcohol content may be stated as a specific percentage with a tolerance of:

Plus or minus 1 percentage point for wines containing over 14% alcohol by volume;
Example: A wine is labeled with the alcohol content statement “18% ALC. BY VOL.” Provided the actual alcohol content does not exceed 19% or fall below 17%, the label alcohol content statement “18% ALC. BY VOL.” is permissible.

Plus or minus 1.5 percentage points for wines containing 14% or less alcohol by volume;
Example: A wine is labeled with the alcohol content statement “12% ALC. BY VOL.” Provided the actual alcohol content does not exceed 13.5% or fall below 10.5%, the label alcohol content statement “12% ALC. BY VOL.” is permissible.

So a 14.0% could really be 15.5%.

[DavidG]

What's the legally allowed error for labeled ABV? And how compliant and/or accurate are they? A variation of +/- 1% could hide or exaggerate differences.

Lots of wiggle room:

Does the alcohol content stated on the label need to indicate the exact alcohol content of the product, or does TTB allow a tolerance?

Alcohol content may be stated as a specific percentage with a tolerance of:

Plus or minus 1 percentage point for wines containing over 14% alcohol by volume;
Example: A wine is labeled with the alcohol content statement “18% ALC. BY VOL.” Provided the actual alcohol content does not exceed 19% or fall below 17%, the label alcohol content statement “18% ALC. BY VOL.” is permissible.

Plus or minus 1.5 percentage points for wines containing 14% or less alcohol by volume;
Example: A wine is labeled with the alcohol content statement “12% ALC. BY VOL.” Provided the actual alcohol content does not exceed 13.5% or fall below 10.5%, the label alcohol content statement “12% ALC. BY VOL.” is permissible.

So a 14.0% could really be 15.5%.

Thanks Glenn. Absent actual measurement, sounds like an exercise in futility.

[JimHow]

Yeah no shit David. I mean, it sounds meaningless.

[AKR]

Lots of wiggle room:

Does the alcohol content stated on the label need to indicate the exact alcohol content of the product, or does TTB allow a tolerance?

Alcohol content may be stated as a specific percentage with a tolerance of:

Plus or minus 1 percentage point for wines containing over 14% alcohol by volume;
Example: A wine is labeled with the alcohol content statement “18% ALC. BY VOL.” Provided the actual alcohol content does not exceed 19% or fall below 17%, the label alcohol content statement “18% ALC. BY VOL.” is permissible.

Plus or minus 1.5 percentage points for wines containing 14% or less alcohol by volume;
Example: A wine is labeled with the alcohol content statement “12% ALC. BY VOL.” Provided the actual alcohol content does not exceed 13.5% or fall below 10.5%, the label alcohol content statement “12% ALC. BY VOL.” is permissible.

So a 14.0% could really be 15.5%.