Classic Bordeaux - Who Are The Remaining Stalwarts

[OrlandoRobert]

So juxtaposed to the Modern Bordeaux thread, seems to me that we should have a running thread where members can identify those Bordeaux château that remain classic stalwarts. I will skip the first growths, focusing more on the wider range of classic offerings across the spectrum, and hopefully other board members will add their faves from personal experience. I’m only going to list a couple of handfuls to get the ball rolling.

St. Emilion
Corbin Michotte
Magdelaine (2011 final vintage)
Cheval Blanc

Pomerol
Vieux Chateau Certan
Trotanoy
Bourgneuf
L’Evangile

St Estephe
Montrose
Calon Segur
Lafon Roche

Pauilliac
Pichon Lalande
D’Armailhac
Duhart Milon
Clerc Milon
Fonbadet
Batailley

St Julien
Leoville Barton
Langoa Barton
Jaugaret
Gruaud Larose
Beychevelle

Margaux
Jaugueyron
D’Issan
Ferriere
Bel-Air Marquis D’Aligre (BAMA)

Medoc
Sociando Mallet
Lanessan (through 2014)
Chasse Spleen (Moulis)
Cantemerle
Jaugueyron (they make a Haut Medoc as well)

Graves/Pessac-Leognan
Maybe Haut Bailly


Would love to see some ringers and QPRs added.

[sisler]

I would add Palmer and Lynch Bages.

Cheers
Stefan

[Comte Flaneur]

This is a rally complicated topic Robert. Like threading the eye of the needle through a camel. But I think you are mainly on the money, though the alcohol on Calon Segur is frightening. La Lagune is quite classic still as far as I can tell, but Caroline Frey’s HLC had 15.5% in 2017 iirc.

So really the only immaculate slate belongs to Bel-air Marquis D’Aligre

P.S., the Haut-Bailly 2016 tasted at the estate in late October with Alex and Blanquito was reassuringly classical, but quite closed down (surprise, surprise).

[OrlandoRobert]

OMG how the heck did I miss BAMA!?!

Scandalous!

BAMA, Magdelaine and Sociando are my three biggest Bordeaux holdings. I should be flogged.

Just amended to add it in.

[robert goulet]

R. Gassies for Margaux but I have not tried recent vintages

[robert goulet]

Is Larose Trintadon still classic ?

[Blanquito]

Great start!

I would add Branaire Ducru.

[JimHow]

I like OB's list!
it has most of my votes:
Montrose, Calon Segur, Lafon Rochet
No qualms about his Pauillac selections, but, OB, what is your view on Pichon Baron?
No qualms about his St. Julien selections, although I've never heard of Jaugaret (sp?)
No qualms about Margaux, except I've never heard of Jaugeyron.
No qualms about Haut Bailly as his only choice in Graves, that is an appellation in distress.
His Haut Medoc has Sociando, Chasse, and Cantemerle, the only wines I really care about there.

I guess the only question I have is about Pichon Baron.

[Musigny 151]

Not much to add, and all the wines below have a caveat that I have not tasted them after 2014
La Tour de By
Loudenne
Fourcas Dupre
Pedescaux
La Tour Figeac

[Chateau Vin]

Speaking of BAMA, an article of interest about the man from Neal Martin...

https://vinous.com/articles/last-man-st ... e-may-2018

[JimHow]

Never heard the term BAMA before tonight. Is this a Berzerkers thing?

[OrlandoRobert]

I like OB's list!
it has most of my votes:
Montrose, Calon Segur, Lafon Rochet
No qualms about his Pauillac selections, but, OB, what is your view on Pichon Baron?
No qualms about his St. Julien selections, although I've never heard of Jaugaret (sp?)
No qualms about Margaux, except I've never heard of Jaugeyron.
No qualms about Haut Bailly as his only choice in Graves, that is an appellation in distress.
His Haut Medoc has Sociando, Chasse, and Cantemerle, the only wines I really care about there.

I guess the only question I have is about Pichon Baron.

Ok Jimbo, time to get your geek on! You may be too cool for this, though.

Jaugaret and Jaugueyron are the iconoclastic plays, kinda like BAMA.

Keith Levenberg introduced me to Jaugaret, it’s a Rosenthal import. It’s gotten quite pricey, around $125 for the 2016, but this stuff is utterly classic. Here is a great write-up on the Domaine by Eric Asimov:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/dini ... 5Pour.html

I cannot recall how I learned about Clos du Jaugueyron - probably from my favorite retailer, Chambers Street in NYC - but I have been enamored with this estate for quite some time. True soil-to-glass transfer, minimal intervention, gorgeously aromatic, red-fruited wines. They make a Margaux, with some sections of the vineyards over 100 years old, and make a Haut Medoc. The Margaux is also a bit pricy at $125, but the classic Haut-Medoc is around $50. Both worthy purchases.

https://www.chambersstwines.com/Article ... e-themedoc

Pichon Baron is one of the few epiphany wines I had in the 93/94 timeframe. The 1989. It was and remains spectacular. It should be on my classic list, except that I have not had a young Pichon since the 2009 version. I’ll defer to others on this one, but assume it remains fairly classic.

[OrlandoRobert]

Never heard the term BAMA before tonight. Is this a Berzerkers thing?

What?! Huh? OMG. Bitch, this is an Alfert thing!

And here I was writing about Jaugaret and Jaugueyron, thinking you knew about BAMA.

BAMA is otherworldly. I love love love his Chateaux. Read the write-ups by William Kelley and Neal Martin, this is a throw-back to the 1800s.

I am drinking a 1998 right this very moment. Hard to imagine a more classic, old school wine made in all of Bordeaux. I posit that this is what Bordeaux tasted like pre-phylloxera. So bright, so transparent and aromatic, both lean and powerful at the same time. The intensity of red fruits blows me away, like a Franc de Pied (but it’s not). Rarely a hair out of place on these wines. Impeccable balance. ABV in check at 12.5%. No presence of new oak, more like some subtle barn plank framing. This is a top 5 Bordeaux for me. I own a lot of it. Jimbo needs some of this. The 1995, 96, 98 and 2000 are drinking brilliantly.

[OrlandoRobert]

Is Larose Trintadon still classic ?

Been hearing lots of praise on the 2016. I am curious as well.

I broke my teeth on this wine early on. Served the 1990 at my 1996 wedding. We had 200+ guests so had to be modest but wanted high quality. The 1990 delivered in spades. I might have gotten laid that night.

[Dionysus]

I thought I knew my Bordeaux but I have so so much yet to learn. Love these suggestions OrlandoRobert!!!
Like a kid a Christmas here with new toys to play with.

And as for the last comment...ROFL

[robert goulet]

Did Talbot go modern?

[Nicklasss]

Good listing OrlandoRobert.

I would add Potensac, Latour-Martillac, de Fieuzal, Figeac (pre-2013?), Ausone, Petrus, Lafleur, Cos Labory, Leoville Las Cases (in the same kind of way as Pichon Baron), Tour Saint-Bonnet.

None of the First Growth?

[Nicklasss]

Did Talbot go modern?

I would say no, as still getting low ratings from Leve.

[OrlandoRobert]

Good listing OrlandoRobert.

I would add Potensac, Latour-Martillac, de Fieuzal, Figeac (pre-2013?), Ausone, Petrus, Lafleur, Cos Labory, Leoville Las Cases (in the same kind of way as Pichon Baron), Tour Saint-Bonnet.

None of the First Growth?

I think all of the FGs are classic though Haut Brion has recently been pushing the ABV.

Great call on Potensac! I forgot about that one, yet enjoy 2016 and 2014 very much.

I’m not sure about Ausone. The 2015, as Leve might say, was liquid chocolate sex juice bomb! Figeac pre-2013 for sure!

I think Lafleur is the only major Bordeaux that I have not tried. I need to remedy that.

[Blanquito]

My three favorite traditional estates are all “gone”: Magdelaine, Figeac, and Canon.

[JoelD]

Love this thread but I wonder, should we update it with the ones that were still good in recent years until going to the dark side?

A lot of us still backfill older wines, so this would be quite useful for wines from the 90's and 2000's. Figeac is a good example. Obviously a lot of this will be subjective but putting a vintage where things started to change would be awesome.

[JimHow]

What should I do with my two pristine cases of 2015 Canon?

[OrlandoRobert]

Love this thread but I wonder, should we update it with the ones that were still good in recent years until going to the dark side?

A lot of us still backfill older wines, so this would be quite useful for wines from the 90's and 2000's. Figeac is a good example. Obviously a lot of this will be subjective but putting a vintage where things started to change would be awesome.

I like that idea.

Here are a few:

Figeac (up to 2012)
Conseillante (up to 2012)
Les Carmes Haut Brion (up to 2011)
La Louviere (up to 2012)

And yes, I selectively have backfilled on all four.

[Blanquito]

What should I do with my two pristine cases of 2015 Canon?

Keep away from open flame!

[OrlandoRobert]

What should I do with my two pristine cases of 2015 Canon?

Cocktail party after you win Alaska!

Or, bring it to Alaska to warm you like a fine Cognac.

[Blanquito]

… good for degreasing engines and killing brain cells…

[JoelD]

Might just have to open a 95 BAMA this weekend. I will certainly update on my findings if I do.

[robert goulet]

Did Talbot go modern?

I would say no, as still getting low ratings from Leve.

Lol...we should just get a list of low rated Leve bordeaux's and add them

[robert goulet]

I believe the once classic Malartic and Les Carmes went modern

[robert goulet]

I believe the once classic Malartic and Les Carmes went modern ....Graves in a flat spin...ughh

[Nicklasss]

What should I do with my two pristine cases of 2015 Canon?

As i'm not for selling wine, bring one to each BWE convention for the next 24 years? That will give the chance to every BWE laughing about that wine at the moment, to taste it and figure out how modernly great it is? At UGC, i thought it was the best 2015 in the place, with Rauzan Ségla.

[OrlandoRobert]

I believe the once classic Malartic and Les Carmes went modern ....Graves in a flat spin...ughh

BobbyG -

Les Carmes Haut Brion has definitely gone modern. I really loved the more lean, often herbaceous, red-fruited Les Carmes, though fully understand that many believed it was not performing up to its terroir. It is more of my style of wine though, with a very healthy cut of Cab Franc. Was a Chinon lover’s Bordeaux. You notice the changes starting in the 2012 bottling (we had this together), then full-scale in 2015. And look at the scores now, 96-100 on some vintages. The 2015 is too ripe for me, but I will admit to liking the 2016. It’s got gloss to it, definitely modern, but definitely not over the top. I think the Cab Franc and the vintage prevailed over winemaking here. I bought the 2017 as well out of curiosity, Jane Austin was rather big on it. Leve called it like taking “a nap on Pratesi sheets – a silky, sensuous and richly textured rendezvous.” Got me all hot and bothered! Leve was on point with the 2016 review. I will not buy the 2018, vintage too ripe for me. So I guess I can acknowledge that this is modern done decently. Compare that to modern done poorly, say Troplong, Pavie, Lascombes. SHL, Pape Clement, et al.

When ownership changed and consultants brought in, I actually started backfilling on some excellent vintages of this wine, like 2010, 2005 and 2000. I recall buying the 2010 at $55 exactly at the time the 2015 and 2016 were breaking the $100 barrier. That was a steal!

[DavidG]

Jim - I’d open the 2015 Canon when a cocktail wine is called for. Or hold it 20 years to see what happens. Or sell or trade it. It’s appreciated a lot from futures pricing, so you could trade it in for something more in your wheelhouse.

Robert, are recent vintages of BAMA still available in the US? I have a little from a few vintages but haven’t really seen it around past the 2010.

[Ambrose]

Carbonnieux rouge in Graves maybe? Had the 16 recently, certainly not overworked / overblown.
Where does GPL sit?

Great list - a few there I’m now keen to try.

[JimHow]

What are your favorite vintages of GPL Ambrose?

[AKR]

If people can tolerate Clive Coates, in his various books he touches on estates he prefers, which are generally in the 'classic' camp. I would observe that US consumers - and most tasters I know - do not line up well with his preferences. (I don't)

One would have to taste Larmande side by side with a quasi peer like Beau Sejour Becot and pick the former, blind, as the better of the two, to determine their palate was aligned with Coates (perhaps also while smoking a cigarette). Still, even if one doesn't love his annointees, there can be something learned from skimming his preferred picks, and trying them.

[Racer Chris]

...
One would have to taste Larmande side by side with a quasi peer like Beau Sejour Becot and pick the former, blind, as the better of the two, to determine their palate was aligned with Coates (perhaps also while smoking a cigarette). ...

I've never been a tobacco smoker but I've enjoyed the "ashtray" character in some wines from time to time.

[Ambrose]

What are your favorite vintages of GPL Ambrose?

06 GPL was the first Pauillac I ever tried. Not sure how that wine goes in context but I enjoyed it. Have tasted a few back vintages (03, 11, 13) but more particularly the 14 & 15 won me over. Bought a few 19’s as well. Joss Fowler (who I trust a bit) tends to like it & it tends to do pretty well at Southwold. As you can imagine it’s been interesting to read through the GPL is a fraud thread & also you dropping it out of the fifth growths. Putting the two together I get the feeling it’s one to miss unless the vintage really makes the wine - then it can be decent value perhaps. I’ll make up my own mind I guess, once the 14’s hit the 12year+ window.

[JimHow]

Nice. I don’t remember tasting the 2006. I did like the 2014, perhaps more than even 2016. Im not as down on the 2013 vintage as Stefan and others, it seems to me there was very strict selection that year, although I have not tried the GPL from that vintage. I have one bottle of the 2015 in my cellar but have not tried it yet.

[Blanquito]

If people can tolerate Clive Coates, in his various books he touches on estates he prefers, which are generally in the 'classic' camp. I would observe that US consumers - and most tasters I know - do not line up well with his preferences. (I don't)

One would have to taste Larmande side by side with a quasi peer like Beau Sejour Becot and pick the former, blind, as the better of the two, to determine their palate was aligned with Coates (perhaps also while smoking a cigarette). Still, even if one doesn't love his annointees, there can be something learned from skimming his preferred picks, and trying them.

This would be key.