Classic Bordeaux - Who Are The Remaining Stalwarts

[AKR]

That's just what I've heard from a certain wine fraud consultant; I don't have any first hand evidence or personal knowledge of his smoking.

[marcs]

If the 2015 Canon is to be used for cocktails, what are we to do with the supposedly classic 2015 VCC?

Does Tertre Roteboeuf count as still classic, because they make wines in exactly the same idiosyncratic way they did in the 90s? Or not because they are rich?

[OrlandoRobert]

Does Tertre Roteboeuf count as still classic, because they make wines in exactly the same idiosyncratic way they did in the 90s? Or not because they are rich?

To me, no. It is iconoclastic.

[DavidG]

If the 2015 Canon is to be used for cocktails, what are we to do with the supposedly classic 2015 VCC?

Does Tertre Roteboeuf count as still classic, because they make wines in exactly the same idiosyncratic way they did in the 90s? Or not because they are rich?

Here’s my on-release note on the 2015 Canon, from 2018:

Just got these in and had to give one a spin. Pop and pour. Black core, purplish red at the rim.

Nose is there right away, no waiting or coaxing needed: dark fruits, flowers, moist potting soil, some oaky vanilla and tar.

Full bodied, creamy silky palate-coating lush fruit with good balancing acidity that keeps it fresh, label says 15% ABV but I’m not getting any alcoholic heat, can feel the tannins but no bitter or harsh notes to them. Very long finish.

After a couple of hours the nose is more intense with a bit of cherry added to the dark fruits, earth, flowers and oaky notes. Tannins are more evident but the ripe fruit and balance are still there.

Obviously no aged complexity yet. My only criticism is that it’s not showing much Bordeaux-ness but I wouldn’t expect that at this early stage. Not an AFWE wine and may never be, but it’s balanced, not overly sweet or too ripe. This is a baby monster and while it’s pumping out plenty to love right now, I’ll be waiting for that Bordeaux complexity to show up in another 15-20 years. Outstanding.

Not sad I bought it, and not embarrassed to say I was swept away by its youthful intensity. If it becomes truly monstrous or that Bordeaux complexity doesn’t show up, then yes, use it as a cocktail wine. Or sell it. I bought over a case of this @ $90/btl (we split the purchase Marcus), so if it gets turned into cash to buy other wines it will still have served a useful purpose.

[Nicklasss]

I wish i had some 2015 Canon... i order you to keep them all... these 2015 Canon are like the Wayne Gretzky rookie cards: you will know later you have something unbelievable on hand.

[OrlandoRobert]

I wish i had some 2015 Canon... i order you to keep them all... these 2015 Canon are like the Wayne Gretzky rookie cards: you will know later you have something unbelievable on hand.

I didn’t necessary like this wine, but I’d hold it. Never know what it becomes, and certainly it will only appreciate in value given the scores.

[JimHow]

We have many wines from the cellar to choose from, Nicola, including the 2015 Canon, when you come visit.

Good advice, OB, my instincts tell me to hold those two cases... I'll try to steer Nicola away to some other stuff.

[hautbrionlover]

I was disappointed that Cos d’Estournel, a personal favorite, is not on the list.

I assume that its omission is deliberate because you deem it to have gone too “modern”?

I have had many Cos vintages from ‘66 to ‘96, but while I have some more recent ones in my cellar (including 6 bottles of the acclaimed 2016), I haven’t tried them yet.

[OrlandoRobert]

I was disappointed that Cos d’Estournel, a personal favorite, is not on the list.

I assume that its omission is deliberate because you deem it to have gone too “modern”?

I have had many Cos vintages from ‘66 to ‘96, but while I have some more recent ones in my cellar (including 6 bottles of the acclaimed 2016), I haven’t tried them yet.

I think that wine is a poster child for everything that went wrong on the left Bank post-2000. I have heard that it has recently scaled back, but it has completely lost me as a buyer, I’m done with the Château. Such a shame, was one of my favorite wines before the change.

[DavidG]

I was disappointed that Cos d’Estournel, a personal favorite, is not on the list.

I assume that its omission is deliberate because you deem it to have gone too “modern”?

I have had many Cos vintages from ‘66 to ‘96, but while I have some more recent ones in my cellar (including 6 bottles of the acclaimed 2016), I haven’t tried them yet.

I think that wine is a poster child for everything that went wrong on the left Bank post-2000. I have heard that it has recently scaled back, but it has completely lost me as a buyer, I’m done with the Château. Such a shame, was one of my favorite wines before the change.

Gotta agree here. Cos has become a cocktail wine. Which vintage Cos was that supposedly RP 100-pointer Jim served blind at our Saturday BWE dinner this fall? My first guess on nose alone was a big Oakville cab, and the palate fit as well.

[JimHow]

It was the 2010 David. Crazy stuff!

[DavidG]

I couldn’t recall if it was the 2009 or 2010. Once you told us it was indeed Bordeaux and not some Napa ringer, then ruled out the right bank after some St. Emilion guesses, Cos was not too hard to pin down. I was thinking 2003 Cos, a wine I’ve had and which is probably even more out there, before you made the reveal.

[Racer Chris]

A number of Cellartracker notes on the 2014 Cos are from users I'm a fan of including Motz, wineotim, Keith Levenberg, Tim Heaton, Jeff Leve. They are very positive about it, although a couple years ago englishman's claret opined about the 14.2abv and heavy handed oak treatment in his note. He also mentions lower alcohol in the two subsequent vintages.
I probably won't open the first of my 3 bottles for another 5 years but I have every expectation that it will be a standout in another 15 years.
Last night I drank a bottle of the 2014 Pagodes de Cos and quite enjoyed it, although it really should be left for another 5 years as well.

[JimHow]

I enjoyed my one experience with the 2014 Cos, I have 6 more bottles. Then again, I’ve loved just about everything from 2014.

[OrlandoRobert]

A number of Cellartracker notes on the 2014 Cos are from users I'm a fan of including Motz, wineotim, Keith Levenberg, Tim Heaton, Jeff Leve. They are very positive about it, although a couple years ago englishman's claret opined about the 14.2abv and heavy handed oak treatment in his note. He also mentions lower alcohol in the two subsequent vintages.
I probably won't open the first of my 3 bottles for another 5 years but I have every expectation that it will be a standout in another 15 years.
Last night I drank a bottle of the 2014 Pagodes de Cos and quite enjoyed it, although it really should be left for another 5 years as well.

Great to hear, I definitely trust Keith, but many of the main critics still refer to it as lush and opulent, mocha and jam. WS, Suckles, AG, Jancis. I have not tried.

[Racer Chris]

I'm sipping on a glass of 2014 Ch. d'Arvigny right now. It's old school to the core as far as I'm concerned, but only an 87-89 point wine in general. I opened this to put in my beef ragout Thursday night, but this afternoon it's drinking quite well.

[DavidG]

I have not had the '14 Cos. The '03 was the last year I bought, and that mostly to see what the controversy was about. I actually loved it as a big ripe Napa-esque wine. It had some hints of Bordeaux and better balance than I was expecting despite its hugeness and anti-AFWE nature. I stopped buying and stopped paying attention to Cos at that point 'cuz I didn’t need to spend $$ on or accumulate more of that style. The 2010 Jim brought to DC was in the same mold.

I am inclined to trust Levenberg, Leve, et al on the 2014. So have Cos dialed it back or is it the nature of the vintage that is reigning in the 2014? Checking CellarTracker… Levenberg says the big fat blowsy days are over at Cos. He and Leve both loved the 2016. Hmm, good thing I’m on a freeze.

[marcs]

Levenberg is a great writer, maybe the best pure stylist among wine writers today, but he is pretty much gaga over new style Bordeaux -- loves most of the stuff he drinks from recent vintages. Of course he still loves classic Bordeaux as well, but I don't really trust his palate any more to steer me to only to the "classic" style Bordeaux.

[OrlandoRobert]

Levenberg is a great writer, maybe the best pure stylist among wine writers today, but he is pretty much gaga over new style Bordeaux -- loves most of the stuff he drinks from recent vintages. Of course he still loves classic Bordeaux as well, but I don't really trust his palate any more to steer me to only to the "classic" style Bordeaux.

These are very astute observations. I concur on the first point, Keith is a remarkably gifted writer, truly best of class. I have gone to Bern’s several times with him, he is also a remarkably perceptive taster. He has an uncanny ability to describe with such clarity, and with metaphors and reference points, to keep things interesting. We socialize by e-mail regularly, with recommendations back and forth, and I generally like what he recommends. I, too, have noticed that stylistically he has become a bit more open to modern Bordeaux. I do not think it has crossed the line, but I do think about it when he opines on some young Bordeaux that I know has gone modern. Keith is one guy that I wish would go into the trade, his wine publication could be extraordinary. The problem is, he makes a fortune as a brilliant lawyer!

Keith is a great guy, by the way. Really fun and gracious.

[Blanquito]

As I’ve said before (falling into public service announcement terrain), pretty much the perfect palate (for me) amongst amateur and professional wine writers alike is DaleW on CT. He tastes pretty broadly, though mostly mature stuff, has no agenda, prefers classic traditional chateau but can appreciate more mid-modern stuff to a degree while eschewing the ooze monsters, likes pyrazines to be a point, puts balance above all else, etc, etc. But he does usually want some fruit and body for a wine to really get a high score, so he doesn’t swing too rustic either.

I’ve backfilled a ton of mature claret based on his notes and he’s never steered me wrong.

[OrlandoRobert]

As I’ve said before (falling into public service announcement terrain), pretty much the perfect palate (for me) amongst amateur and professional wine writers alike is DaleW on CT. He tastes pretty broadly, though mostly mature stuff, has no agenda, prefers classic traditional chateau but can appreciate more mid-modern stuff to a degree while eschewing the ooze monsters, likes pyrazines to be a point, puts balance above all else, etc, etc. But he does usually want some fruit and body for a wine to really get a high score, so he doesn’t swing too rustic either.

I’ve backfilled a ton of mature claret based on his notes and he’s never steered me wrong.

I thought it was me you admired to the very depths of your core classicist being!?!

[DavidG]

I have DaleW and Keith on my list of CT fans. Agree with above comments.

Though the modern/ripe extent of my window has been gradually shrinking, I enjoy a broader range of styles than Robert and probably Pat. I think my palate aligns pretty well with Marcus', and I find his TNs quite enjoyable.

[Blanquito]

Yeah, my palate aligns super well with OrlandoBobby’s it’s true, except for Chinon (which I like less) and a few midmodern wines such as the 2015 and 2016 Siran (which I like more). I think I am more tolerant of the American oak at Ridge too, but I think Ridge cabs have gotten oakier in recent years and I wholeheartedly agree that I’d like Ridge even more if they used French oak (like they do on their whites).

But virtually everything else seems to click. And Robert, even if Dale steers me towards old bordeaux, Loire whites, and red burgundies, you are my main man in the northern Rhone and Beaujolais!

[DavidG]

I think Ridge cabs have gotten Pakistani in recent years and I wholeheartedly agree that I’d like Ridge even more if they used French oak (like they do on their whites).

Is this some new term this old geezer's not up on?

[Blanquito]

I think Ridge cabs have gotten Pakistani in recent years and I wholeheartedly agree that I’d like Ridge even more if they used French oak (like they do on their whites).

Is this some new term this old geezer's not up on?

F-ing autocorrect! The perils of posting from your phone.

Fixed, thanks for flagging that.

[JoelD]

I think Ridge cabs have gotten Pakistani in recent years and I wholeheartedly agree that I’d like Ridge even more if they used French oak (like they do on their whites).

Is this some new term this old geezer's not up on?

HA! I actually convinced myself that was a real note he came up with. Well then.

[Blanquito]

How “oakier” gets converted to “Pakistani” is one of the great mysteries of AI.

[OrlandoRobert]

How “oakier” gets converted to “Pakistani” is one of the great mysteries of AI.

It opened the door for so many choice comments - Boebert woulda been slinging - but I chose to take the higher ground.

Of course, Pat could have meant “dry, grainy, earthy, spiced”.

[Racer Chris]

I thought maybe pakistani oak was being used for wine barrels now.

[Blanquito]

I thought maybe pakistani oak was being used for wine barrels now.

An oak species (Quercus baloot), common in montane regions in and around Pakistan from 1000-3000 m elevation.

[AKR]

As I’ve said before (falling into public service announcement terrain), pretty much the perfect palate (for me) amongst amateur and professional wine writers alike is DaleW on CT. He tastes pretty broadly, though mostly mature stuff, has no agenda, prefers classic traditional chateau but can appreciate more mid-modern stuff to a degree while eschewing the ooze monsters, likes pyrazines to be a point, puts balance above all else, etc, etc. But he does usually want some fruit and body for a wine to really get a high score, so he doesn’t swing too rustic either.

I’ve backfilled a ton of mature claret based on his notes and he’s never steered me wrong.

DaleW has a high tolerance for Basset Hound aromas too !

[Ianjaig]

Is Giscours not worth being considered "classic"? Whilst I've had some variable experiences with Giscours in the past, I cant think of one that I would have described as being modern. Perhaps not "old school" but certainly classic?

[marcs]

You know, on classic vs modern Bordeaux, I think things are more complicated than is made out. In particular, I think there are not one but two recent waves of "modernism" in Bordeaux. The first is Parkerization, or Rolland-ization if you like, which hit in the early 2000s -- longer hang time, more fruit selection, more extraction. People have their arms around that phenomenon and describe it pretty well. Most sophisticated Bordeaux consumers discount the effect of this on the wines and don't describe it as necessarily a quality improvement, rather the opposite.

The second wave, which is peaking more recently I think although it also started to become evident a while ago, is less discussed and I'd love to see more analysis of it. That's the increase in the "smoothness" of the wines, in particular the taming of youthful tannins and getting a softer plusher wine younger. Bordeaux producers have gotten incredibly good at this, and at the same time are reducing extraction somewhat so the cruder elements of over-extraction are gone. Over the 2012-2016 period it seemed like a lot of producers were also reducing alcohol, but in 2015 and 2018-2020 they seem to have returned to being comfortable with high alcohol levels in these modern wines.

A lot of critics and sophisticated consumers (Levenberg is one, Ian has this tendency as well) actually really seem to like this most recent take on Bordeaux, and regularly are describing newer Bordeaux as the "best Bordeaux ever made". But in my (somewhat limited) experience these wines can feel somewhat engineered, and this is also not exactly "classical" Bordeaux. It's not as crude as Parkerization but it does feel in some cases like a more international type style to me. The jury also seems out on how exactly it will affect aging. I would love to see someone knowledgeable about wine technology give a take on what has happened to Bordeaux over the past 10 years or so, post-Parkerization. It's not really a return to the classical style.

[Blanquito]

The second wave, which is peaking more recently I think although it also started to become evident a while ago, is less discussed and I'd love to see more analysis of it. That's the increase in the "smoothness" of the wines, in particular the taming of youthful tannins and getting a softer plusher wine younger. Bordeaux producers have gotten incredibly good at this, and at the same time are reducing extraction somewhat so the cruder elements of over-extraction are gone. Over the 2012-2016 period it seemed like a lot of producers were also reducing alcohol, but in 2015 and 2018-2020 they seem to have returned to being comfortable with high alcohol levels in these modern wines.

A lot of critics and sophisticated consumers (Levenberg is one, Ian has this tendency as well) actually really seem to like this most recent take on Bordeaux, and regularly are describing newer Bordeaux as the "best Bordeaux ever made". But in my (somewhat limited) experience these wines can feel somewhat engineered, and this is also not exactly "classical" Bordeaux. It's not as crude as Parkerization but it does feel in some cases like a more international type style to me. The jury also seems out on how exactly it will affect aging. I would love to see someone knowledgeable about wine technology give a take on what has happened to Bordeaux over the past 10 years or so, post-Parkerization. It's not really a return to the classical style.

This is a spot-on synopsis of how things developed and gets at the heart of my reservations about even vintages like 2016. Some people prefer these changes — often using words like purity and precision — but for my mileage they’ve stripped a lot of wine of their charm, authenticity and aging potential. But these more recent incarnations are still far better than the earlier garagiste days, IMHO.

How they’ve achieved this, now that would be a very interesting topic to learn more about, I concur.

[OrlandoRobert]

Both of you nailed it from my perspective! Excellent articulation of the stylistic changes we have seen. A prior poster asked about Giscours. I do not think it is classic, nor do I think it is “modern” in the pejorative way that some of us use that term as applied to wine, but it does fall into that third bucket that Marcs mentions. It is well made from a technical point of view, IMHO, and actually tasty but not necessarily soulful. It’s a bit glossy and superficial, doesn’t really speak to a sense of place to me. I’m not a buyer, but bear in mind, my views on this Chateau are through the 2009 vintage. I have not tried anything any more recent.

[stefan]

>>
The second wave, which is peaking more recently I think although it also started to become evident a while ago, is less discussed and I'd love to see more analysis of it. That's the increase in the "smoothness" of the wines, in particular the taming of youthful tannins and getting a softer plusher wine younger.
>>

I agree, Marcus. This makes me somewhat more inclined to drink youngish Bordeaux than formerly. Why is this not discussed more?

[JimHow]

Had a 2018 Quinault l'Enclos the other night that was delightful.
Just got off a conference call with the Alaska judge.
He is leading me to drink. A 2018 La Dame has been uncorked.

[stefan]

A celebratory drink, I hope.

So 2018 La Dame has already been released?

[Ianjaig]

A prior poster asked about Giscours. I do not think it is classic, nor do I think it is “modern” in the pejorative way that some of us use that term as applied to wine, but it does fall into that third bucket that Marcs mentions. It is well made from a technical point of view, IMHO, and actually tasty but not necessarily soulful. It’s a bit glossy and superficial, doesn’t really speak to a sense of place to me. I’m not a buyer, but bear in mind, my views on this Chateau are through the 2009 vintage. I have not tried anything any more recent.

Fair enough and I appreciate your take on Giscours, but TBH I've never found it to be "glossy and superficial" in my experience. If you have the opportunity, try the 2014 (which I've had twice recently) as I was not only impressed, but found it to be quite classical in style (to my tastes at least).
Cheers,
Ian.

[barsacpinci]

A prior poster asked about Giscours. I do not think it is classic, nor do I think it is “modern” in the pejorative way that some of us use that term as applied to wine, but it does fall into that third bucket that Marcs mentions. It is well made from a technical point of view, IMHO, and actually tasty but not necessarily soulful. It’s a bit glossy and superficial, doesn’t really speak to a sense of place to me. I’m not a buyer, but bear in mind, my views on this Chateau are through the 2009 vintage. I have not tried anything any more recent.

Fair enough and I appreciate your take on Giscours, but TBH I've never found it to be "glossy and superficial" in my experience. If you have the opportunity, try the 2014 (which I've had twice recently) as I was not only impressed, but found it to be quite classical in style (to my tastes at least).
Cheers,
Ian.

Ian, I side with you on Giscours. I’ve been a fan since way back. My first Bordeaux was a 1976 Giscours and have had some wonderful samples since. Although I must admit I haven’t had any vintages past 2010 but prior vintages were definitely made to be enjoyed younger than other Bordeaux I’ve had. But it’s been like that since the late 70s. Some day I’m planning to have a major vertical going back to ‘78. I never considered it a wine to age so we shall see how these hold up. BTW, if you ever get to Bordeaux, the property is worth a visit, it is beautiful.