Second Labels

[StBlGT]

What is everyone's thoughts on second labels? Worth the money or totally a waste? Let's break it down into 3 tiers...high priced chateaux, mid priced chateaux, and lower priced chateaux. For example:

High Priced Chateaux

Carruades de Lafite
Pavillon Rouge du Margaux
Les Forts de Latour
Le Clarence de Haut Brion
Le Petit Mouton

Mid Priced Chateaux

Alter Ego
Le Petit Lion du Marquis de Las Cases
Echo de Lynch Bages
Le Marques de Calon Segur
La Dame de Montrose

Lower Priced Chateaux

Blason d'Issan
Baron de Brane
Fleur de Pedesclaux
La Dame de Malscot
Chevalier de Lascombes

I know there are many more, and even third wines, but what is your top second wines (if any)...or are there some that are a continuous QPR every vintage that one should buy? Let's discuss. Cheers!

[Harry C.]

Had a 1998 le Petite Cheval recently and it was wonderful. Price on the bottle was $59. Taste has a strong resemblance to a Guigal LaLa. Amazing! This was worth it!

[hautbrionlover]

I don’t bother with second labels other than from First Growths. (That said, a friend served a Sarget de Gruaud Larose which I found to be a poor substitute for its big brother.)
I have had some very good experiences with Les Forts de Latour and Pavillon de Chateau Margaux.
I think the Carruades is ridiculously overpriced and not remotely worth it.

[StBlGT]

Thank you both for posting some experiences. I read a lot about 2nd wines such as La Dame de Montrose and Le Marquis de Calon Segur being very nice for the price. I have never had any second wine, hence the question...but I guess maybe I will give it a go with one or two to see for myself.

[Comte Flaneur]

My attitude to second wines changed when we - 17 BWErs - tried the exceptional 2004 Pavillon Rouge at Chateau Margaux in 2015. I went out and bought some straight away. I also managed to score some 2010 Pav Rouge cheaply at auction a couple of years ago.I agree Carruades does not offer good value, but 20 years ago it was one tenth of its current price and it was my house red.

Generally I think second wines do not offer great value for money but last year I bought two six packs of 2010 Les Forts Latour at one sixth the price of the 2010 Latour GV and at about the same prices as a full case of 2010 Leoville Lascases.

What defines a second wine? I used to think that Clos Du Marquis was the second wine of LLC. It is clearly not in the same league as the GV. But now the marketing spin doctors insist it is a not a second wine but a different expression of the estate. Ch. Palmer’s second wine used to be called ‘Reserve Du General.’ There are two marketing no-no words in there: ‘reserve’ and ‘general’ so the marketers came up with Alta Ego de Chateau Palmer and insist it is not a second wine. I have only one word to say about that: bollocks.

[Nicklasss]

I guess the "non-official" definition of second wine is a wine made with parcels or grapes or barrels that are not ok to be in the first wine. But it is the same attention as it is the same team that make the first and the second wine.

Other thing, even if it is the same team making both wines, blending can be quite different. So as for the first wine, it is a matter of which producers you like, and the price of the bottle. I think second wines have improved but some are proposed at disuasive prices, and when you pay a high price for a first wine, in time it will maintain or increase value, while i'm not sure this is true for second wines.

Some thoughts:

- I like the Clos du Marquis as the price seems ok to me, relative to quality, and i like the style of LLC. I never tried the Petit Lion that is "supposed" to be the real second wine of LLC.

- like Comte Flaneur, the 2004 Pavillon Rouge was "not that far away" from the 2004 Chateau Margaux, when we had them side-by-side in 2015. Without tasting, i would have tought that would be impossible. So tasting before purchasing is still a good rule for second wines too.

- I like Alter Ego (Palmer) and Carruades de Lafite(Lafite Rothschild) each time i had them, but i have a mental blockage vs the prices.

- some of the Second Growth are producing very good second wines. Namely Pichon Lalande and Montrose (and LLC).

- I clearly like the second wines of Smith Haut Laffite, red and white. The red is concentrated and a bit modern, but not over the top. Dry white wines from SHL are the only dry white from Pessac Léognan that i really appreciate.

- For other Crus Classés (3rd Groth or lower), the price of their second wines can be attractive, but to my experience they are further away the quality of their first wine, more soft, less concentrated, still nice drink, but i think most excellent Crus Bourgeois are better.

Hope it helps.

And welcome to BWE StBIGT.

[jckba]

I think this question comes down to a matter of personal preference and also opinion as certain wines can and do offer value in certain vintages, but truth be told, I would rather spend my hard earned money on the 1st wine of an estate than on a 2nd wine made from either grapes that did not make the cut and/or young vines.

[AKR]

What is everyone's thoughts on second labels? Worth the money or totally a waste? Let's break it down into 3 tiers...high priced chateaux, mid priced chateaux, and lower priced chateaux.

I know there are many more, and even third wines, but what is your top second wines (if any)...or are there some that are a continuous QPR every vintage that one should buy? Let's discuss. Cheers!

It's been a very long time since we've done it - more than a decade or more - but we've had panel tastings of various second wines to compare them cross sectionally. You might consider pulling one of those together if you can find friends to do this with. Blind makes it even more fun!

The other idea to consider, if there is an estate you particularly love, is to compare the little wine versus its big brother side by side. But as noted upthread, sometimes wines can be fashioned so that the deuxieme will taste better in the first few years.

A generation ago, these were more consistently good values. Now, I feel they are the reverse - almost like they are designed to pick off the label conscious.

[Racer Chris]

To me it's just like buying the first wines. Vintage matters.

[StBlGT]

Some really great information! Thank you all.

Nicklasss...thank you for the welcome and great post. I have been signed up for a little, but rarely post. I do read this forum daily. There are so many knowledgeable members here and there is so much to learn.

jckba and Racer Chris just brought up something interesting. I can see how a vintage like 2013 would be a no-go on second wines....but what about more riper vintages like 2015 and 2018? Is that a good buying strategy for these wines?

[JoelD]

I guess the "non-official" definition of second wine is a wine made with parcels or grapes or barrels that are not ok to be in the first wine. But it is the same attention as it is the same team that make the first and the second wine.

Other thing, even if it is the same team making both wines, blending can be quite different. So as for the first wine, it is a matter of which producers you like, and the price of the bottle. I think second wines have improved but some are proposed at disuasive prices, and when you pay a high price for a first wine, in time it will maintain or increase value, while i'm not sure this is true for second wines.

Some thoughts:

- I like the Clos du Marquis as the price seems ok to me, relative to quality, and i like the style of LLC. I never tried the Petit Lion that is "supposed" to be the real second wine of LLC.

- like Comte Flaneur, the 2004 Pavillon Rouge was "not that far away" from the 2004 Chateau Margaux, when we had them side-by-side in 2015. Without tasting, i would have tought that would be impossible. So tasting before purchasing is still a good rule for second wines too.

- I like Alter Ego (Palmer) and Carruades de Lafite(Lafite Rothschild) each time i had them, but i have a mental blockage vs the prices.

- some of the Second Growth are producing very good second wines. Namely Pichon Lalande and Montrose (and LLC).

- I clearly like the second wines of Smith Haut Laffite, red and white. The red is concentrated and a bit modern, but not over the top. Dry white wines from SHL are the only dry white from Pessac Léognan that i really appreciate.

- For other Crus Classés (3rd Groth or lower), the price of their second wines can be attractive, but to my experience they are further away the quality of their first wine, more soft, less concentrated, still nice drink, but i think most excellent Crus Bourgeois are better.

Hope it helps.

And welcome to BWE StBIGT.

I was going to respond to this, however Nic took literally all of the words right out of my mouth. All of his points are great.

To sum it up simply, I think second wines are rarely worth the price compared to 1st wines of other estates. But there are always exceptions.

[Racer Chris]

To sum it up simply, I think second wines are rarely worth the price compared to 1st wines of other estates. But there are always exceptions.

There are second wines all the way down to $20 Cru Bourgeois Chateaux. I regularly buy Ch. d'Arvigny, which is the second of Ch. Beaumont.
In selective years I'll buy La Dame de Montrose, Croix de Beaucaillou, Reserve de Comtesse, Sarget de Gruaud, Marquis de Calon, and a few others.

[JoelD]

To sum it up simply, I think second wines are rarely worth the price compared to 1st wines of other estates. But there are always exceptions.

There are second wines all the way down to $20 Cru Bourgeois Chateaux. I regularly buy Ch. d'Arvigny, which is the second of Ch. Beaumont.
In selective years I'll buy La Dame de Montrose, Croix de Beaucaillou, Reserve de Comtesse, Sarget de Gruaud, Marquis de Calon, and a few others.

To clarify, I meant that 2nd wines are rarely worth it in comparison to quality 1st wines at the same price point. For example, a second wine that retails around $50, is much less often to be as good as 1st wines that retail around $50.

Of course it happens, always exceptions. I usually feel that I can find at least 5-10 1st wines at the a similar price point that I like better than a second label.

[DavidG]

Nic nailed it.

I would add that even with the same wine growing and winemaking team, the grapes and/or barrels deemed unfit for the first Wine may not be treated to the same elevage or barrel aging regimen.

I'd also guess that a second wine, even if similar or indistinguishable from the first wine in barrel, may not share the same aging profile.

I've had a chance to taste a few outstanding second wines over the years. Margaux' Pavillion Rouge and Palmer's Alter Ego (though they might not refer to them as second wines) have already been mentioned and are memorably on that list. But I don't think I've ever purchased a second wine.

[AlexR]

This topic regularly comes up on BWE.

Some people avoid second wines on principal, whether because they are cautious or due to a certain element of snobbery.

The answer to this question is simply that... it all depends.
Dismissing second wines wholesale is pretty ignorant in my opinion, as is advocating them as a rule.

Sometimes, a lesser wine from a good year is a better value. But it takes a brave man to put forth that this is systematically true.

Unfortunately, there are so many châteaux that even the most hard-working critics rarely do a comprehensive review of second wines, especially en primeur. So it is often a case of trial and error with a rule of thumb being that if you like the grand vin, you're likely to like the younger brother.

With the *added* advantage that second wines are almost always ready to drink sooner.

Alex R.

[Blanquito]

I was quite pleasantly surprised at the quality of the second wines tried in Bordeaux last October. Can't speak to their value though as I didn't check prices (I wasn't that impressed).

If more generally inexpensive, second wines would be ideal for restaurant wine lists.

[AKR]

I might observe that Dominus's 2nd, Napanook, is generally excellent and a safe bet. It is sort of like Les Forts was before the market adjusted. I remember reading in the book - What Price Bordeaux* - that the author suggested the most rational price for deuxiemes was ~ 1/3 of the price of the grand vin.

Nowadays, in the US, one certainly sees many more of these than a lifetime ago when generally only a few of the Firsts and LLC's Clos du Marquis were regularly available consistently. Which reminds me, I still have never tried the 1989 Bahans Haut Brion, which people still rave about, all these years later.

My favorites of all time would be 82 and 90 Les Forts, 90 Pensees de Lafleur, and maybe 96 Reserve de Comtesse.

* viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8209

[Tom In DC]

To start, I have always been a "never second". The first wines of lesser estates (by ranking) have ALWAYS been better at whatever price point you might have in mind.

I did a quick wine-searcher review of 2nd wines in the 2014 and 2015 vintages.

OMG, the prices for the 2nds of the 1sts are ludicrous! Who would spend $200 to $400 or more for such wines?

We've done the Pichon Lalande vs. Comtesse, Montrose vs. la Dame, etc., etc., etc., tastings so many times. The second wine rarely resembles the first. This is key - I don't think you get much of an impression of the big gun from the sidekick. The cepage is usually different, even the vineyards differ.

That's not to say the 2nds aren't good wines. They're just always overpriced (sometimes insanely) compared to other estates' first wines.

[StBlGT]

AKR, very good recommendation with Napanook. One of the reasons why I started this thread was because I've had some great luck with Napa second wines (Napanook, Lyndenhurst, M.Étain, etc.), and I was curious if it was worth exploring in Bordeaux as well.

[Blanquito]

AKR, very good recommendation with Napanook. One of the reasons why I started this thread was because I've had some great luck with Napa second wines (Napanook, Lyndenhurst, M.Étain, etc.), and I was curious if it was worth exploring in Bordeaux as well.

Another one from CA to try is Togni’s Tanbark Hill Cab.

[JoelD]

Actually, a few that I like are La Petit Eglise and La Gravette de Certan. The latter has pumped in price along with VCC but the Petit is still reasonable sometimes. Quality wines.

[AKR]

To start, I have always been a "never second". The first wines of lesser estates (by ranking) have ALWAYS been better at whatever price point you might have in mind.

I did a quick wine-searcher review of 2nd wines in the 2014 and 2015 vintages.

OMG, the prices for the 2nds of the 1sts are ludicrous! Who would spend $200 to $400 or more for such wines?

We've done the Pichon Lalande vs. Comtesse, Montrose vs. la Dame, etc., etc., etc., tastings so many times. The second wine rarely resembles the first. This is key - I don't think you get much of an impression of the big gun from the sidekick. The cepage is usually different, even the vineyards differ.

That's not to say the 2nds aren't good wines. They're just always overpriced (sometimes insanely) compared to other estates' first wines.

The relative value is generally the biggest issue, especially the more knowledgeable one is with prices and quality.

[AlexR]

I would like to take issue with the naysayers and – respectfully, of course – with you Tom.

We were discussing second wines just last night. Tim Mc Cracken is in town and he kindly brought some bottles to taste blind. One of these was 1978 Clos du Marquis. This was a very fine Médoc, showing about a decade younger than its years. It did not have quite the length of a great wine, but it was hugely enjoyable.
For a start, it is not fair to judge second wines based on the most expensive ones. We are probably in agreement that value for money here is not the norm.
However, you cannot compare a grand vin that costs 2 or 3 times what the second wine costs in the same breath!
Tom, you say that you have found the second wines to be, if I summarize correctly, a pale imitation of the older brother. I’d say that even in instances where that was true, a more apt comparison would be one that was stated above: second wines versus non-classified growths in a similar price bracket.
It should be pointed out that some second wines are very attractively priced, and that Pavillon Rouge and Forts de Latour are the tip of the iceberg and not especially representative. Lots of Bordeaux estates, not just the crus classés, have second wines. Therefore, to generalize about these is a difficult thing to do.
If money were not object, buying the grand vin is obviously the better choice. But I have no doubt that there are treasures among the less expensive and more early-maturing second wines.

I maintain there are wonderful second wines out there. Is it a mixed bag? Of course it is! That’s why experience (one’s own, or that of critics) is precious.

All the best,
Alex

[JoelD]

I’d say that even in instances where that was true, a more apt comparison would be one that was stated above: second wines versus non-classified growths in a similar price bracket.

If money were not object, buying the grand vin is obviously the better choice. But I have no doubt that there are treasures among the less expensive and more early-maturing second wines.

These are very fair statements, although I would expand just a tad. I don't think that second wines should be limited to being compared to non-classified growths. It should be any wines, in their similar price bracket.

I think price is a factor for a large majority of the regulars on this forum, so that QPR always matters to some extent. That's not to say that it is always the first thing looked at. Sometimes the experience and tastes throw price out the window.

Second wines definitely have their value though, even when the price might exceed the value by a bit. Sometimes they can wow you. And can also be a great approximation of the grand vin and terroir if there is a producer that you really love.

I would add, that I tend to seek out second wines even more so from the great vintages as they seem to show exponentially better. Similar theory that I use for buying Village and even bourgogne level wines.

[AKR]

*Perhaps I'm an outlier on this, but I've had numerous experiences where I have preferred the 2nd over the 1st, especially on release, or in their early years.

* One issue with actually exploring this in depth, is that older connoisseurs are unlikely to be enthused about expending limited free time / tasting group karma on committing to a dinner theme with this as a focus.

* For some estates, they go to great effort (The Lady Doth Protest Too Much!) in trying to spin the 2nd as something other than 'byproduct'. Yet one of the first thing the blending/consultant/oenologues do - who have great skill in assembling the final cepage - is to advise estates that it can be rational to make less grand vin, of higher quality, by hiving off some vats for a local restaurant blend, 2nd, or whatever they need to do to boost the main wine which is intended to gather high scores and glory for the owners.

* Maybe its the total shut down of all the travel/hospitality/F&B/clubs/cruises, but I see so many of these nowadays. On what normal planet is 'Dauphine de Grand Pontet' really needed in my corner of the world?

[Tom In DC]

Alex, maybe you got too steamed up over one of your hot buttons to read all of my post? Maybe the double negative of "That's not to say the 2nds aren't good wines" was confusing.

My first comment was indeed wrong - I said "The first wines of lesser estates (by ranking) have ALWAYS been better at whatever price point you might have in mind." when I meant that ***at the price point*** of any given second wine, I could always find one or more first wines at other estates that I would like better.

[Nicklasss]

Is there a Tom in DC second label? That must be pretty good!

[AlexR]

Tom,

om,

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you wrote.

The thing is, so many people here spend a lot of money on wine that we (myself included) can lose sight of how the average wine lover sees things, not to mention people with a modest income.

Second wines? These have been referred to on the thread as "restaurant wines", a name I quite like. I would argue that many second wines deliver more young than their corresponding grand vin. Seeing as few restaurants keep old stock, it's a win-win situation.
Second wines are hugely popular in France. Why? Because only rich foreigners buy the great wines (just kidding). Seriously though, in a land where wine is common and inexpensive, the price differential between a cru classé and its second wine is seen as very significant.
Furthermore, how many people can buy wine and age it for decades?
Second wines are a compromise solution.
A compromis in quality? Yes, but the crux of the matter is value for money.

I fully agree that some second wines are way overpriced. But others are very competitively priced!
A wine-savvy friend recently said how much he enjoyed a 2014 Chapelle de Potensac, second wine of Château de Potensac in a Paris restaurant.
Many non-classified châteaux also make second wines.
That's why I think comments on these wines should be separated into two categories: second wines of famous labels, then the rest.

I think a BWE tasting of second wines would be a good thing. Not as I think you mentioned above, the grand vin alongside the second wine, but a range of second wines on their own. With their price tags revealed at the end.
At the same, or another tasting, second wines of great growths could be compared to non-classfied wines fromt he same vintage, also with cost indicated.
That would be fun, and we all could learn.

All the best,
Alex R.

[Claudius2]

Guys
I always find the topic of second wines to be a difficult one.
I’ve been drinking wine regularly since the mid 70s and Bordeaux for nearly all of those years.

When I started learning about Bordeaux, the general view of second wines were that they were largely off cuts from the first wine. Later the view was that they were made from both off cuts and younger vines and/or plots that struggle to produce good wine. Forts de Latour was even some decades ago seen as an exception and in that case, I still see FdeL as a good model for a second wine.

Now during the 90s and 00’s, the prices of the Premiers Crus escalated. Margaux is now 20-30 times what I paid for it as a novice. As prices have climbed the quality of BOTH first and second wine, and in some cases, third wines, has improved. The estates can’t expect consumers to fork out thousands if the wine isn’t carefully made.

My general theory of second wines until the above period of escalation was that the money would be better spent on the first wine of a lesser estate that the “off cuts” from a top one. Now I’m not so sure. The estates now seek to make second wines that are complete and balanced wines rather than leftovers. So now I don’t have a jaundiced view of them. Note that many estates include a fair bit or Merlot in the second wine compared to the Grands Vins. I mean the Medoc in particular. And Making them palatable at a young age - like restaurant friendly versions.

It is also worth noting that many estates are making third wines and regional wines. The latter may be termed something like “Haut Medoc De Lagrange” for example. I guzzled down some of the 14 and 15 of that wine last year and whilst not great wines, they were pleasantly fruity and drinkable and made with some care. Similarly, drank the regional wine of Beychevelle and when sipping it, I thought to myself that while being rather modern, it tasted better than Beychevelle from poor vintages from the 70’s.

The second wines of second growths are I think now pretty good. I was never much of a fan of Reserve Comtesse but the only recent vintage I’ve tried (either 14 or 15, can’t be sure) was pretty good. The second wines of Montrose and Ducru Beaucaillou are also very good in their own right but I still prefer to spend my cash on the first wines even if I have to buy lesser ranked Cru Classe’ wines.

So maybe my conclusion is that the second wines have improved markedly BUT so have the prices. They are no longer leftovers but well balanced wines. But I still can’t get over the cognitive gap I have with them, yet I have been pleasantly surprised with them in recent years.

Cheers
Mark

[DavidG]

Alex, Mark: I see nothing to disagree with in your comments on the qualities of second wines. Or in Tom's for that matter.

My primary interest is in Bordeaux that will develop tertiary complexity after a few decades of aging. The second wines don't seem to be designed to do that. I'm not willing to spend the money or time to experiment with aging them decades.

When in the mood for something early-drinking, I gravitate to the first wines of lesser estates (or California). Lanessan, Sociando, Cantemerle, etc. OK some of these have escalated in price or modernity, but you get the idea. There are numerous others. For similar cost to a second wine, I'm getting an estate's best effort. One that is pretty reliably better than a more esteemed property's second wine at a similar price point. At least that was the case 20 years ago, when I was paying attention to them. I was never enthused enough to purchase more than trial bottles of second wines here and there.

I also think Mark is on point when he says that estates have upped their games with their second wines. So it's quite possible that my decades-old impressions are no longer relevant. It would be fascinating as you suggest to do a blind tasting comparing similarly-priced second wines of greater estates to the first wines of lesser estates. There are probably so many that selection bias could tilt the results either way, but if the goal is to identify more early-drinking candidates at friendly price points, who cares?

[stefan]

At home I tend to avoid buying second wines, although some Bahans Haut-Brion and Pavillon Rouge du Margaux served me well in years past. When traveling I more often buy second wines for immediate consumption. For example, Domaine du Castel Grand Vin is arguably the best Israeli Bordeaux blend, but the price for an aged bottle is prohibitively high. OTOH, Domaine du Castel Petit Castel, made for earlier drinking and containing a higher percentage of Merlot than the Grand Vin, is a lovely go to wine for me when I am in Israel.

[JimHow]

La Dame de Montrose seems to be a second label that hits a sweet spot for me in price and quality.