15% alcohol, and no worry?

[Nicklasss]

Seems like nebbiolo wines handle alcohol better than some other type of wines. Is it because of the acidity, the tanins, the terroir, or some other magic from producers?

Last night, the 2018 Produttori del Barbaresco's Barbaresco, with 15 % alcohol. The wine was ligth red cherry color, with a nice nose of little red berries, violet flowers, red licorice candy, and light cinnamon cherries. In mouth, light concentration but still intense and long. Mostly red cherries, with kind of old roses, cinnamon, light tar. Did feel the alcohol on the very first sip after opening, waited 30 min after decant, and 15 min in the fridge, and the wine was so balanced, adding some very light purple fruit. Excellent, in the line of the 2017, but with just a tad more acidity. Tn: 90-91.

I also bought a 2020 Punset Barbera d'Alba at 15 % alcohol, recommended by my safest wine consellor at the SAQ. He told me that this Barbera is no wood and no alcohol feel, making it a nice drink. Will open probably in the next 3 weeks.

[JimHow]

The 2015 Tour St. Christophe I had last month did not seem to be affected negatively by the 15% alcohol level. I like the basic Produttori bottlings, but they seem a bit uncomplicated to me. One of the fancier bottlings at a restaurant in Portland a few years ago was a stunner.

[Musigny 151]

You guys are way more tolerant of alcohol than I am. I can just about deal with low 14% but can certainly feel the extra. I fear as climate changes, the lower alcohol wines will be the exception rather than the rule. Most critics seem to ok with these levels, so there is little incentive to stop producing this type of wine. My own defense is to buy heavily the older vintages, and drink German wines.


There is an interesting debate on the Berserker Board about high density planting which produces slightly earlier ripening,

[stefan]

I am always bothered by 15% alcohol, especially in Bordeaux. Sometimes I lower the level slightly by diluting with water from my reverse osmosis machine. If highly classified Bordeaux estates feel it is OK to concentrate their grape juice, why shouldn't the consumer restore it to its natural state?

[JimHow]

You guys would not like the 2010 Troplong Mondot, then, I think that was like 16%.

[Musigny 151]

16.2%

[JimHow]

Jacques and I both thought it was wonderfully insane.
It was like those Dal Forno Amarones I love so much!

[jal]

I am always bothered by 15% alcohol, especially in Bordeaux. Sometimes I lower the level slightly by diluting with water from my reverse osmosis machine. If highly classified Bordeaux estates feel it is OK to concentrate their grape juice, why shouldn't the consumer restore it to its natural state?

Ok, that's crazy talk!

[stefan]

It works better than simmering the wine to lower the alcohol, Jacques. Not sure whether it is better than freezing the wine and pouring off some of the ethanol.

[jal]

It works better than simmering the wine to lower the alcohol, Jacques. Not sure whether it is better than freezing the wine and pouring off some of the ethanol.

Just kidding Bill, I’ve put ice cubes in my overly alcoholic white wine more than once.

[DavidG]

I don’t tolerate alcohol as well as I used to. Some wines can hide 15% better than others in terms of nose and palate, but I still feel it.

[ericp]

I’m probably more tolerant than most on the alcohol, and don’t get too much heat until the alcohol content passes 15%.

With where global warming is headed, we’re all in trouble as I fear 15+ will become the norm as warmer than historical temps take hold driving up the sugar levels and subsequently the alcohol.

Bill - get a patent filed for your reverse osmosis alcohol removal system quick!!

[Claudius2]

Guys
I have tried hard not to get involved in this discussion as it seems to always create a schism in the views of the forum.

Going back at least 40 years, I have always had issues with high ABV levels, and for some years, I have been sending off my high alcohol Australian shiraz to auction as I simply cannot cope with it any more. And I don't even care what prices it sells for as I just don't want it. I am lucky to get back half the initial price, and had to pay for storage for years. I have written on various occasions how many Australian producers, particularly in Barossa and McLaren Vale, were seduced by high RPJnr points and started producing wines that were akin to road tar. This started in the 80's and there are still several wineries that are adhering to wines that have up to 19% alcohol.

I was completely disillusioned with them - and even some really expensive wines ($500+) were a complete disaster. The older they got, the worse they were. After ageing them for a decade or two, every single high alcohol wine I unfortunately bought failed to develop into a balanced, enjoyable wine. All I was left with was burning alcohol, stewed out, dead fruit character with no freshness or balance, and rasping, grating tannins. Yes they can appear to be seductive and powerful when young, but they just fall to bits with age. To think I could have bought first growths or DRC for less......

I do have to say that many producers have now realised the same thing and have moved away from these monsters. I do fairly regular tastings online with Aussie producers, and I am pleased to report that there are many estates that have reversed the trend, and there is also a big move to cooler climates such as Tasmania. Tasmanian wines are now sweeping the floor at wine shows and tastings.

As for Bordeaux, my recent experiences with 2019's showed me that whilst this is a very good vintage, a few right bank wines were rather hot and spirity, irrespective of their level of fruit, acidity, tannins, oak, etc. I bought quite a few and in repacking them for storage, I put the high alcohol wines together as I think I will need to drink them young. The highest I saw was 15.5% and frankly, that shocked me.

According to Decanter magazine, average ABV for top Bordeaux (Premiers Crus, other well regarded wines) increased from 12.7% in the 1990's to 14% in recent vintages. The same pattern was evident in other regions incl Piedmont, Tuscany, California and Australia. Decanter said that from 2010 to 2019, the av ABV in California was 14.6% - meaning that even "average" is becoming rather meaningless.

I am now suspicious of any wine above 14% alcohol, irrespective of where it is from, the variety or the style. If you like them that is fine by me but you are welcome to them. If you find a 15%+ wine to be agreeable, I would argue that at lower alcohol, the exact same wine would offer more nuances of flavour and will age better.

Now I do accept that there will be a few exceptions to this, yet to be honest, I have never found one. When I buy win online now, or even directly import it, I ask for the ABV levels. Some think I'm a bit eccentric (which is probably true in any case) but a few of them are now listing ABV in their emails and on websites, so I think I'm not the only recalcitrant.

[Nicklasss]

Today in Vancouver, i saw the 2015 Domaine de la Charbonnière Vieilles Vignes Chateauneuf du Pape at 16%...

[jckba]

I read comments from trusted palates who are routinely put off by higher alcohol 14% wines and while I can understand that point of view for a hot and/or jammy and/or unbalanced and/or baked effort but if said wine maintains balance and freshness, I have much less of an issue. Take for instance the wines of Chateauneuf du Pape where grenache is the predominant grape variety, as it late ripening it directly contributes to its higher alcohol levels but you can’t lump all producers into the same style.

[Claudius2]

I read comments from trusted palates who are routinely put off by higher alcohol 14% wines and while I can understand that point of view for a hot and/or jammy and/or unbalanced and/or baked effort but if said wine maintains balance and freshness, I have much less of an issue. Take for instance the wines of Chateauneuf du Pape where grenache is the predominant grape variety, as it late ripening it directly contributes to its higher alcohol levels but you can’t lump all producers into the same style.

Well maybe that’s why I have never been much of a fan of Ch. Du Pape.
I have some 2015s in one of the wine fridges and at 15% I think the alcohol intrudes and the fruit isn’t balanced to my palate.

In most cases I think Grenache/Garnacha is a rather simple grape variety which is why most of it is blended. I am happy to drink a few producers particularly Beaucastel but I’ll take Cote Rotie or Hermitage in preference.

Cheers
Mark

[DavidG]

I too agree with jckba, but will add that with age I also need to be careful about quantities, especially when the wine is good despite the high alcohol.

As to Châteauneuf, when Grenache gets ripe enough to push 15% ABV it tends to take on a sickly sweet character (think “candy necklace” from the ‘60s) that is a total turn-off for me.