Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Bordeaux is a very misunderstood wine in English-speaking countries, where it frequently garners disapproval and, occasionally, downright hostility. This has more to do with pricing than anything else.
Of course, this disaffection is largely due to the widespread misconception that Bordeaux is synonymous with the great growths and a handful of other wines that, in reality, account for only an itsy-bitsy share of production.
I am fairly active on English-speaking wine forums and have long tried to defend, not so much the great growths of Bordeaux, whose recent price increases have in many instances been unconscionable, but the other 95%.
Believe me, it is tough going… It somehow seems infinitely more sexy to “discover” a wine from the Luberon or the Jura than Bordeaux, which is considered old hat – the opposite of a new frontier. Never mind the fact that there are some 6,000 châteaux and there is lots going on.
Of course, the Bordelais must accept much of the blame for this misconception.
There was an interesting discussion on the Facebook page of Chris Kissack, who has a blog called the Wine Doctor. The subject of Bordeaux pricing came up and I got on my hobby horse about the abuse of the word “Bordeaux” to mean “great growths”. Such discussions usually go nowhere, but this time it was explained to me that, in England, for instance, people *start* to sample Bordeaux with the great growths and then branch out from there to discover the lesser, more affordable wines. Other posters agreed.
This kind of floored me.
I saw things as just the opposite: that people begin investigating the wines of a region or country on the modest end and then work their way up to the more expensive wines if they like what they taste.
I would be interested to hear your own thoughts on the subject. A round of Bordeaux bashing is beside the point. I’ve heard it all before. What I’d be interested in hearing is:
Do wine lovers really start out with top end Bordeaux as was explained to me?
If so, is this unique to Bordeaux, or does it apply to other winegrowing régions too?
Best regards,
Alex R.
Of course, this disaffection is largely due to the widespread misconception that Bordeaux is synonymous with the great growths and a handful of other wines that, in reality, account for only an itsy-bitsy share of production.
I am fairly active on English-speaking wine forums and have long tried to defend, not so much the great growths of Bordeaux, whose recent price increases have in many instances been unconscionable, but the other 95%.
Believe me, it is tough going… It somehow seems infinitely more sexy to “discover” a wine from the Luberon or the Jura than Bordeaux, which is considered old hat – the opposite of a new frontier. Never mind the fact that there are some 6,000 châteaux and there is lots going on.
Of course, the Bordelais must accept much of the blame for this misconception.
There was an interesting discussion on the Facebook page of Chris Kissack, who has a blog called the Wine Doctor. The subject of Bordeaux pricing came up and I got on my hobby horse about the abuse of the word “Bordeaux” to mean “great growths”. Such discussions usually go nowhere, but this time it was explained to me that, in England, for instance, people *start* to sample Bordeaux with the great growths and then branch out from there to discover the lesser, more affordable wines. Other posters agreed.
This kind of floored me.
I saw things as just the opposite: that people begin investigating the wines of a region or country on the modest end and then work their way up to the more expensive wines if they like what they taste.
I would be interested to hear your own thoughts on the subject. A round of Bordeaux bashing is beside the point. I’ve heard it all before. What I’d be interested in hearing is:
Do wine lovers really start out with top end Bordeaux as was explained to me?
If so, is this unique to Bordeaux, or does it apply to other winegrowing régions too?
Best regards,
Alex R.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
How do you define “great growths”?
Any classified Bordeaux or first growths?
Many of the lesser growths don't get much air play here in the USA.
Mention Malbec from Argentina and every one gushes praise.
Mention Cahors (technically not Bordeaux) and no one knows what you're talking about.
New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc gets wows while Bordeaux blanc gets a yawn.
Any classified Bordeaux or first growths?
Many of the lesser growths don't get much air play here in the USA.
Mention Malbec from Argentina and every one gushes praise.
Mention Cahors (technically not Bordeaux) and no one knows what you're talking about.
New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc gets wows while Bordeaux blanc gets a yawn.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Rob, I believe that Alex means classed growths when he writes great growths. As opposed to petit chateaux. I'm not sure if he classifies Bordeaux supérieur with the great growths or the little guys.
Alex, it was certainly top-down for me. My first vintage was 1982 and I (stupidly) didn't start with the first growths. As a newbie I thought spending that much was excessive and might be thought pretentious by my friends, none of whom were wine geeks at that time. But I did get the best I thought was reasonable: Pichon Lalande, Grand Puy Lacoste, Gruaud Larose and Talbot come to mind. I wasn't interested in the non-classed-growth wines. I wanted to see what the region was capable of, and it seemed to me that the better classed growths would be more representative of that than the lesser wines.
Bottles of even first growths were not that expensive, so I don't think there was that much financial disincentive to buy the good stuff back then, and most people I knew were buying the better classed growths.
Also keep in mind that in 1985, when the '82s were showing up on retail shelves (I hadn't even heard of futures yet), there weren't as many non-classed wines imported (still aren't that many) and the quality level of the lesser wines, or at least the perception of the quality level, was less than it is today.
Atleast in the US, there appears to be a preponderance of the better wines coming in, and fewer of the lesser wines. Whether this is true, and why, is likely a good subject to branch off of your initial query. My point here is that people are likely to try what's available. In the early stages of wine-geekdom, that typically means seeking out the best local wine shop and buying what they have to offer. Especially in the US, where it takes more knowledge and experience to graduate to interstate shipping, if it's even legal.
So I think there are two main reasons people tend to start with the better wines, even if not at the very top, in any region: 1) a desire to understand what the region is capable of, and 2) local availability.
Fast-forward 30 years from 1985 to 2015. Increased availability and quality of lesser wines is making it a good time to be a Bordeaux lover. I bought a fair number of lesser 2009s and especially 2010s for drinking before I reach terminal decrepitude. But the message of quality and affordability of the lesser wines has not reached the budding wine geek population. The price increases of the past decade have left the good stuff out of reach for the newcomer with an average wine budget. Bordeaux' image, to those who aren't cognoscenti and as portrayed in the popular press, is still $1000 Lafite and conspicuous consumption. Not an image likely to attract the newbie.
Alex, it was certainly top-down for me. My first vintage was 1982 and I (stupidly) didn't start with the first growths. As a newbie I thought spending that much was excessive and might be thought pretentious by my friends, none of whom were wine geeks at that time. But I did get the best I thought was reasonable: Pichon Lalande, Grand Puy Lacoste, Gruaud Larose and Talbot come to mind. I wasn't interested in the non-classed-growth wines. I wanted to see what the region was capable of, and it seemed to me that the better classed growths would be more representative of that than the lesser wines.
Bottles of even first growths were not that expensive, so I don't think there was that much financial disincentive to buy the good stuff back then, and most people I knew were buying the better classed growths.
Also keep in mind that in 1985, when the '82s were showing up on retail shelves (I hadn't even heard of futures yet), there weren't as many non-classed wines imported (still aren't that many) and the quality level of the lesser wines, or at least the perception of the quality level, was less than it is today.
Atleast in the US, there appears to be a preponderance of the better wines coming in, and fewer of the lesser wines. Whether this is true, and why, is likely a good subject to branch off of your initial query. My point here is that people are likely to try what's available. In the early stages of wine-geekdom, that typically means seeking out the best local wine shop and buying what they have to offer. Especially in the US, where it takes more knowledge and experience to graduate to interstate shipping, if it's even legal.
So I think there are two main reasons people tend to start with the better wines, even if not at the very top, in any region: 1) a desire to understand what the region is capable of, and 2) local availability.
Fast-forward 30 years from 1985 to 2015. Increased availability and quality of lesser wines is making it a good time to be a Bordeaux lover. I bought a fair number of lesser 2009s and especially 2010s for drinking before I reach terminal decrepitude. But the message of quality and affordability of the lesser wines has not reached the budding wine geek population. The price increases of the past decade have left the good stuff out of reach for the newcomer with an average wine budget. Bordeaux' image, to those who aren't cognoscenti and as portrayed in the popular press, is still $1000 Lafite and conspicuous consumption. Not an image likely to attract the newbie.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
The biggest issue with Bordeaux in the states, is the misguided perception that it is consumed by pretentious wine snobs.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Rob, you always manage to say in a few words what it takes me a paragraph or two to get around to.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
I'm not very eloquent.
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Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
RDD, 100 Points to that.....RDD wrote:The biggest issue with Bordeaux in the states, is the misguided perception that it is consumed by pretentious wine snobs.
I find it fascinating to see the difference in reactions of people...
1. If I tell them 'I generally drink French/Bordeaux', they look at me as a snob and get a tease once in a while...
![Surprised :o](./images/smilies/icon_e_surprised.gif)
2. If I tell them 'I generally drink French and Italian wines', they look at me as a connoisseur who has varied tastes ...
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
I think the first Bordeaux I ever tasted was a sweet one, the 75 Climens. I was so enamored I took the bottle home. How could something be so aromatic, balanced yet sweet, still so vibrant? And back then I had no idea how wine could age, so I was even amazed at it being "old". (This must have been when it was age 20 or something)
Now we live in a just amazing era for both the quality of recent vintages, and the ease which consumers (in most states) can acquire them. My problem is NOT in acquiring good, fairly priced BDX....it's really in restraining myself from getting too much since that region already gets plenty of stem 'share' in our house. If 2015 shapes up as enthusiasts hope, there could be yet another great vintage to choose from. (And its been a remarkable era for the sweet wines, which don't get much attention) In addition resources like CT, winesearcher, various boards, professional critics sites etc. make it far easier to find information about what to buy, how much to pay, when to drink it, and so on. Even some of the smart set theory algos on some retailer sites which make recommendations based on what you are considering is a neat addition that we never had in the past.
These are golden times indeed for Bordeaux.
Now we live in a just amazing era for both the quality of recent vintages, and the ease which consumers (in most states) can acquire them. My problem is NOT in acquiring good, fairly priced BDX....it's really in restraining myself from getting too much since that region already gets plenty of stem 'share' in our house. If 2015 shapes up as enthusiasts hope, there could be yet another great vintage to choose from. (And its been a remarkable era for the sweet wines, which don't get much attention) In addition resources like CT, winesearcher, various boards, professional critics sites etc. make it far easier to find information about what to buy, how much to pay, when to drink it, and so on. Even some of the smart set theory algos on some retailer sites which make recommendations based on what you are considering is a neat addition that we never had in the past.
These are golden times indeed for Bordeaux.
- JCNorthway
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Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
My first real exposure to Bordeaux wines came in the early 1990s when the 1989 and 1990 vintages were available at retail here in the states. I had only been into wine for 2-3 years at that point and was ready to venture outside my comfort zone of northern California. My focus was on what I considered "reasonably" priced wines that had been rated near, or over, 90 points. My only guide back then was a gift subscription I had received to Wine Spectator. Based on my price range, I was not considering the first growths, or even the next tier down. A few of the names I remember buying were La Louvier, Clerc Milon, La Lagune, Talbot, Lagrange, Gruaud Larose (an exception on sale), Figeac, and Cantemerle ($17.00 for the 1989).
It was not until about the 2005 vintage that I started to search out some of the lesser wines of Bordeaux. That was on the recommendation of a wine guy who knew how good the vintage was and that the higher classed growths would likely need 20 years to come around. Since then I've kept my eye out for some of those lesser wines, especially in stronger vintages like 05, 09, and 10. I will say that they still are not imported to the US in abundance. I have a couple bottles left of a lesser 2005 that was drinking very well about a year ago. And the nice thing is that they also generally drink nicely upon release.
So I'm pleased with what I've been able to find and drink in the last 10 years, but I certainly don't feel very knowledgeable about them.
It was not until about the 2005 vintage that I started to search out some of the lesser wines of Bordeaux. That was on the recommendation of a wine guy who knew how good the vintage was and that the higher classed growths would likely need 20 years to come around. Since then I've kept my eye out for some of those lesser wines, especially in stronger vintages like 05, 09, and 10. I will say that they still are not imported to the US in abundance. I have a couple bottles left of a lesser 2005 that was drinking very well about a year ago. And the nice thing is that they also generally drink nicely upon release.
So I'm pleased with what I've been able to find and drink in the last 10 years, but I certainly don't feel very knowledgeable about them.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Anybody who is having a hard time finding petit chateaux should check out K&L.
It's insane.
Once upon a time Bassins was great for that segment, but I think they have conceded a little bit there.
It's insane.
Once upon a time Bassins was great for that segment, but I think they have conceded a little bit there.
- greatbxfreak
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Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Thanks Alex for bringing the issue up!
I started my wine experience in 1983 with some French wine called Cuvée Privée, It was a mix of bulk wine from all over France and it costed less than 3 Euros then. It tasted OK but I wanted to know more, so I started to go to some events in shopping centers and tasted some interesting wines (not 1.Growths) and then tastings of vintages 1982, 1983 and 1984. These tastings included low-level, mid-level and high level Bordeaux. I didn't taste any older vintages of Bordeaux until 1988, when it succeeded me to get organizing tasting of Chateau Canon in 20+ vintages. In 1984 I went to Bordeaux for the very first time and I visited Ausone, Haut Brion, Figeac and Domaine de Chevalier. Ausone and Haut Brion didn't offer any tasting at that time, while Figeac and D.d.Chevalier were kind to offer tasting. At the later, I became deeply in love with white wine.
I must admit, I love 1.Growths, but I can also like a lot lesser wines, which I discovered during my 4 Voyages de Presse in Pessac Leognan, 2014, 2013, 2012 and 2010. Alex was touring with me in 2014. My best discovery up to now took place during 2010 Voyage de Presse and it's Chateau Seguin from village of Canejan, 10 minutes drive from Pessac, under radar of many wine-journalists, but very sought after in European countries and Asias well. Alex can confirm the quality of this wine. The owner of Seguin made a jewelry for the richest people in the world while working at Cartier and he has transferred the precision into his wines.
I laugh at people saying Bordeaux is too expensive? Excuse me! Same people don't hesitate to buy three/four/five times more expensive red and white Burgundy. I laugh even more while white Burgundy gets premox very often, overseas whites are like on steroids for 4-5-6 years, then they could have Viagra to keep it going, while white Bordeaux keep young and viril for many years to come.
I started my wine experience in 1983 with some French wine called Cuvée Privée, It was a mix of bulk wine from all over France and it costed less than 3 Euros then. It tasted OK but I wanted to know more, so I started to go to some events in shopping centers and tasted some interesting wines (not 1.Growths) and then tastings of vintages 1982, 1983 and 1984. These tastings included low-level, mid-level and high level Bordeaux. I didn't taste any older vintages of Bordeaux until 1988, when it succeeded me to get organizing tasting of Chateau Canon in 20+ vintages. In 1984 I went to Bordeaux for the very first time and I visited Ausone, Haut Brion, Figeac and Domaine de Chevalier. Ausone and Haut Brion didn't offer any tasting at that time, while Figeac and D.d.Chevalier were kind to offer tasting. At the later, I became deeply in love with white wine.
I must admit, I love 1.Growths, but I can also like a lot lesser wines, which I discovered during my 4 Voyages de Presse in Pessac Leognan, 2014, 2013, 2012 and 2010. Alex was touring with me in 2014. My best discovery up to now took place during 2010 Voyage de Presse and it's Chateau Seguin from village of Canejan, 10 minutes drive from Pessac, under radar of many wine-journalists, but very sought after in European countries and Asias well. Alex can confirm the quality of this wine. The owner of Seguin made a jewelry for the richest people in the world while working at Cartier and he has transferred the precision into his wines.
I laugh at people saying Bordeaux is too expensive? Excuse me! Same people don't hesitate to buy three/four/five times more expensive red and white Burgundy. I laugh even more while white Burgundy gets premox very often, overseas whites are like on steroids for 4-5-6 years, then they could have Viagra to keep it going, while white Bordeaux keep young and viril for many years to come.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
For my part, i started with the less reputated, even the négociant wines. The generic Bordeaux. After the petits Châteaux and lesser Crus Bourgeois. I remember the 1993 Chateau Hanteillan and 1993 Chateau Lilian Ladouys making good impression on me. Not So long after, i thought i would make something idiot, buying a 1993 Cru Classé from Pauillac for 33$, the most expensive i had ever bought at this time... Unfortunately, it was a boring one. I continued with all kind/low-medium price Bordeaux, and I discovered BWE in 2000, it got worst.
So yes, I'm from French origins, So I guess starting from bottom to top was making sense. Also, i don't See different Bordeaux in a competitive way, but like Winedinner or AlexR, try to enjoy what each wine has to offer. The Crus Classés are coming from the best vineyards, and I understand that people older than me started with these in the 80's as the prices were still ok. Today is a different story and I still enjoy affordable Bordeaux as more producers are serious and vine growing-wine making techniques are better than ever. Example, I also liked Chateau Séguin when I went there with Alex in 2012 or really enjoyed the 2009 Chateau la Tour de Bessan. Côtes de Castillon are on a hot strike today, and I'm planning to explore a bit more the satellites of Saint-Émilion.
Nic
So yes, I'm from French origins, So I guess starting from bottom to top was making sense. Also, i don't See different Bordeaux in a competitive way, but like Winedinner or AlexR, try to enjoy what each wine has to offer. The Crus Classés are coming from the best vineyards, and I understand that people older than me started with these in the 80's as the prices were still ok. Today is a different story and I still enjoy affordable Bordeaux as more producers are serious and vine growing-wine making techniques are better than ever. Example, I also liked Chateau Séguin when I went there with Alex in 2012 or really enjoyed the 2009 Chateau la Tour de Bessan. Côtes de Castillon are on a hot strike today, and I'm planning to explore a bit more the satellites of Saint-Émilion.
Nic
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Luckily I was introduced to Bordeaux in a great vintage.
My epiphany was 1982 Talbot. WOW!
But had I tried some of the under ripe vintages from the 70's I may have passed.
Then I tried to look for Bordeaux bargains.
A drinkable bargain back then was Larose Trintaudon.
In addition to the trickle down effect, IMHO the biggest influence has been the internet.
The amount of information and history today is astounding.
Prior to that it took a relationship with an insider to get any Bordeaux knowledge.
My epiphany was 1982 Talbot. WOW!
But had I tried some of the under ripe vintages from the 70's I may have passed.
Then I tried to look for Bordeaux bargains.
A drinkable bargain back then was Larose Trintaudon.
In addition to the trickle down effect, IMHO the biggest influence has been the internet.
The amount of information and history today is astounding.
Prior to that it took a relationship with an insider to get any Bordeaux knowledge.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
I started with Cru Bourgeois and worked my way up. Still love the smaller estates in good years. They represent great value, even now. 1er Cru's are wonderful and imho not much more expensive than the best Burgundy, Italy or CA has to offer. Except for Haut Brion and Yquem, others may present me 1er Cru's though. QPR is gone with anything north of $ 50,- imho.
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Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
As I have said here many times, it all started for me with 1986 Chateau de Lamarque, in Montreal, Canada, on January 4, 1998. That was my "epiphany" wine.
The rest, as they say, is history.
The rest, as they say, is history.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
Lucie's and my Bdx epiphany was an '82 La Lagune. It was great, but we could not drink it all the time because it cost $5. $7 Haut-Brion '67 and $9 Haut-Brion '64 also stretched our budget, so we turned to CA Cab and petit chateau Bdx most of the time. We invariably preferred the Bdx. These days we buy at least 100 bottles of Bdx for every bottle of CA cab. These are mostly well known estates, but we experiment with unknowns and buy cases of those we like for parties and for times that we just want to drink something decent.
Re: Bordeaux: a trickle down effect?
I really got rolling with Bordeaux at a time when the exchange rate was 7 French Francs to the dollar. This translated into cases of 1982's such as Potensac at $38, Haut Marbuzet at $60, Talbot at $129, Gruaud Larose at $159, Pichon Lalande at $225, and so forth. My point is not a trip down memory lane, it's that buying great growths was much less of a stretch 30 years ago. So if AlexR's aforementioned compatriots are of a certain age, then it's quite likely that, like me, they started on the big guns and have only been priced down in recent years.
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