President Trump

[JimHow]

Guys, I'm not trying to be an asshole here.
You guys are sitting in your pretty little towns like Chicago, and Denver, and NYC, and Maui.
Come visit downtown Lewiston. Come see Flint. Come see north Philadelphia, or the rust belt, or Baton Rouge, or Manchester NH.
Not everybody out here thinks like you guys, Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman, and the NYT editorial page.
Like Jacques, I'm not always a big Michael Moore guy. But I think he nails it pretty good.
I really think Trump can win OH, PA, MI, IA, and WI, which, of course, will mean he wins the presidency.
Trump will win the Rust Belt.
Deal with it, guys.

[Chateau Vin]

We need to pick the scab, CV.
We need to lance the boil.
We cannot get better until we vomit out all of the poison.

Jim,

I understand your point about the rigged system and the need to fix it. But my point is about not letting Trump win because then we will have more work to do. Even if Hillary doesn't do any better, atleast we will have better starting point to fix things.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that if dems lose, then they have better opportunity to clean the house and will be better. But I am not so sure of that. If Dems lose and Trump wins ,I am afraid the clock on economic and social issues will be turned back and dems will be hard pressed to spend energy on containing Trump wreck rather than have time to clean house.

But Bernie can use his new found fame and following to get together with establishment and work towards fixing the system. I think that is a better option IMO.

[JimHow]

Now let's look at "Cory Booker".
One of the great "stars" of the Democratic Party.
Not so young any more.
Bizarlly, he continues to shave his head.
The obligatory light blue tie.
Zzzzzz. And this guy was a Veep finalist?
Good grief.
THIS is what the Democrat(ic) party has to offer from its young leadership???
we are in BIG trouble.
Cory Booker in prime time….
Booooring.

[JimHow]

Even if Hillary doesn't do any better, at least we will have better starting point to fix things.

See, that's where I think you are misinterpreting me, CV.
From my perspective, Hillary is WORSE than The Donald.
They are both corrupt. But the Democratic Party and the mainstream media would have you believe, in their elitist point of view, that Hillary is the lesser of two evils.
I completely disagree.
I think Hillary is every bit as bad as Trump.
Hillary helped kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq under false pretense. The phony, self-righteous Sunday NYT brunch crowd just passes over that, like it never happened.
I can never vote for her for that reason alone, let alone the dozens of other reasons.
Democratic liberals are awesome hypocrites. They criticize Dubya for the same things that Hillary embraced with open arms.

Count me among the Bernie supporters who will not vote for Hillary. I will leave my ballot blank. So be it.

[Chateau Vin]

Guys, I'm not trying to be an asshole here.
You guys are sitting in your pretty little towns like Chicago, and Denver, and NYC, and Maui.
Come visit downtown Lewiston. Come see Flint. Come see north Philadelphia, or the rust belt, or Baton Rouge, or Manchester NH.
Not everybody out here thinks like you guys, Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman, and the NYT editorial page.
Like Jacques, I'm not always a big Michael Moore guy. But I think he nails it pretty good.
I really think Trump can win OH, PA, MI, IA, and WI, which, of course, will mean he wins the presidency.
Trump will win the Rust Belt.
Deal with it, guys.

Jim,

I feel your angst amid the dilapidation in small towns like Lewiston. Before Chicago, I lived in Detroit near 8 mile road for 3 years and I know all well living near dilapidation. Lived for 10 years in northwest Indiana near Gary and everyday saw the haplessness and despair going to Chicago. Went to Univ of Chicago and I have seen all too well about southside of chicago.

Ofcourse, I also believe that Trump has a good chance of winning the rust belt. But if people think in an objective way and vote for what would happen if we choose one over the other, then even if good things don't happen, worse things won't happen.

[JimHow]

CV, I know your story and I'm inspired by it.
But if you think that Cory Booker, Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman is the route forward for you and your children, I feel sorry for you.
They are not the answer. They are part of the very BIG problem.
Because of the evils of the Debbie Wasserman-led Democratic National Committee, Don Trump will be elected and will nominate 4-5 members to the US Supreme Court. And the fate of the United States for the next 40-50 years will be set.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

So the election of which candidate will most likely result in the boil being lanced? My guess is that Trump is the "shake things up" choice, so vote for him and see if the boil pops/he lances it? Or is it that a Clinton presidency and all of the status quo it entails (more of the same politically and economically) will result in the boil swelling so much it will pop by itself? If you still won't vote on that basis I'd like your opinion on what bursts the status quo boil anyway so I can factor that into my voting decision.

[Chateau Vin]

Even if Hillary doesn't do any better, at least we will have better starting point to fix things.

See, that's where I think you are misinterpreting me, CV.
From my perspective, Hillary is WORSE than The Donald.
They are both corrupt. But the Democratic Party and the mainstream media would have you believe, in their elitist point of view, that Hillary is the lesser of two evils.
I completely disagree.
I think Hillary is every bit as bad as Trump.
Hillary helped kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq under false pretense. The phony, self-righteous Sunday NYT brunch crowd just passes over that, like it never happened.
I can never vote for her for that reason alone, let alone the dozens of other reasons.
Democratic liberals are awesome hypocrites. They criticize Dubya for the same things that Hillary embraced with open arms.

Count me among the Bernie supporters who will not vote for Hillary. I will leave my ballot blank. So be it.

Jim,

I have to disagree about who is the lesser of the two evils. My assessment is not a bit based what mainstream media says. Trust me, I have to agree on some of the stuff mentioned in 'Manufacturing Consent'. So I am aware of media spin.

Since the Judith Miller issue, I lost my faith in the media and the mainstream media is not my cup of tea. I go more by facts and not by what others have to say..

But nonetheless, I think you should vote for whomever is lesser of the two, either republican or democrat...

[JimHow]

Wow. So if my choice is between Adolph Hitler and the "lesser evil" of Benito Mussolini, I should just go ahead and pick Il Duce?
A ridiculous example, of course.
But for an innocent civilian family member in Iraq killed by an American drone as part of the fraudulent, criminal Bush-Clinton war, do you think that family member thinks I should, oh well, just go ahead and vote for our Fifth Avenue, wine drinking, Hamilton-prime-orchestra-seated grandmother from Chappaqua? Fuck that, man.
Lock the bitch up.

I'll vote for Hillary Clinton when hell fucking freezes over.
Feel the bern, bitch.

[Chateau Vin]

CV, I know your story and I'm inspired by it.
But if you think that Cory Booker, Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman is the route forward for you and your children, I feel sorry for you.
They are not the answer. They are part of the very BIG problem.
Because of the evils of the Debbie Wasserman-led Democratic National Committee, Don Trump will be elected and will nominate 4-5 members to the US Supreme Court. And the fate of the United States for the next 40-50 years will be set.

Well said. So the options we have

1. Trump gets elected, and as you said above, the country gets screwed for next 2 generations. But a longshot of DNC fixing itself but cannot fathom the damage done for 2 generations .

2. Clinton gets elected, and the corrupt DNC continues its march toward wherever the hell the party is headed

3. Clinton gets elected and maybe there is a chance that leaders like Bernie, Obama and DNC establishment (or whoever who is demanding change for good) can rewrite the broken rules. It's the right time for Bernie et al to get it fixed in this election cycle. Strike the iron while it's hot...

For me, my order of preference is option 3, 2 and 1

[JimHow]

i'm a Liz Warren fan.
I thought both Liz Warren and Cory Booker were flat and anticlimactic.

[JimHow]

i'm sorry guys, the ONLY moment of the night -- not even my girl Liz warren -- that brought a chill was BERNIE!!!

The victim of a rigged system.

[JimHow]

The young people are with Bernie. If the young aren't with the Democratic nominee, that's a very bad sign.

[DavidG]

Missed the early speakers - we were having a BWE at the Beach dinner with the Wintons here in Ocean City. But when we got back:

Corey Booker was inspiring.
Kudos to the non-politico who told her story of being swindled by Trump U.
Michelle Obama hit a home run. Out of the park, past the parking lot and onto the freeway. I think it's still going.
I usually find it excruciating to listen to Elizabeth Warren but she was tolerable and had a few good pot-shots at Trump.

Bernie Sanders made his points and pushed hard for unity and for Clinton, not just against Trump. Not sure if he'll convince any hard-core Sanders delegates to vote for Hillary in November, but I'm hoping he convinced enough of those watching at home to go out and vote, even if he's not on the ticket.

Couldn't have been a bigger contrast with the R's first night.

[Antoine]

Since marketing supremos have sorted out that negative campaigning was super potent, we have not had a good candidate... We'll never have any in the future then.
So, I suppose you (we in Europe) have to take a step back, forget about the media and political machines propaganda and try to form a judgment which is as little biased by emotions as possible and try to look with cool eyes at the situation and choose the "lesser evil"...and we may be positively surprised if he/she gets in and does better than the low expectations we have been led to have... Good luck with it!

[DavidG]

Antoine you make a good point about negative campaigning. Not that any candidate is a saint, but a steady diet of negative ads just lowers the entire conversation and sours the public on the process. It's very different from what we see in commercial advertising. Sure there are claims of superiority, but you don't see Pepsi claiming Coke causes cancer, or Southwest saying American's planes fall out of the sky. If they did, no one would want to drink any cola or fly any airline. (Except maybe Dustin Hoffman. You could get him on a Qantas flight.)

So in the spirit of staying positive, I'll say this: compared to Trump, Clinton looks like a genius and a saint.

[Racer Chris]

I'm with her.
After watching Mrs. Clinton face the Bengazi committee I believe she is as qualified as Obama says.
None of the flaws and mistakes are sufficient to disqualify her in my mind.
A "third Obama term", along with a Senate majority seems like a real good option.

I agree that Michelle hit a grand slam last night.
The others all did a good job, but Bernie was the star.
His speech went a long way toward bringing his supporters into the fold.

Jim,
I drove down Lisbon St a week ago with my wife, enroute to my brother's farm in Poland.
The day before we were in Buxton at a redneck wedding, my oldest niece married a Maine native.

[JimHow]

Wow Chris, sounds like you drove past my law office, you should have stopped in!

[Jay Winton]

I missed the First Lady's speech (see above ) but watched Bernie. Good job but not one mention of gun control. I don't know what it's going to take if the Demos are bailing on this issue.

[JScott]

Interesting discussion. I still have a hard time believing when push comes to shove that Trump will win, but this is a really hard one to handicap. With negatives this high on both sides I don't believe any of the polls. Jacques is right - there's usually a convention bounce in the polls. I expect to see Hillary bob back up next week (barring another self-inflicted disaster).

Had a similar conversation with a relative recently when I said I was not voting. She said "you have to choose!" Her view is that it's chicken to sit out. My view is more like Jim's, I think. I'm certainly not afraid of voting for one of them; I'm just revolted. I also think not voting is just as legitimate a statement about my viewpoint as voting. I vote "none of the above." I may write someone in. (Check the screens for JimHow's name election eve!). Some here say that not voting for Hillary is a vote for Trump. I disagree. Not voting for Hillary is not voting for Hillary. I'm not voting for Trump either. Others can choose to vote for Trump, regardless of what I do, and his election is on them, not me. I don't want to be responsible for either of them.

[jal]

Well, I disagree with both Jim and Scott and agree with Michael Moore. I'm now waiting for hell to freeze over and for the Cubs to win the World Series.

Here's a quote by Dave Barry I like:

“The Democrats seem to be basically nicer people, but they have demonstrated time and again that they have the management skills of celery. They're the kind of people who'd stop to help you change a flat, but would somehow manage to set your car on fire. I would be reluctant to entrust them with a Cuisinart, let alone the economy. The Republicans, on the other hand, would know how to fix your tire, but they wouldn't bother to stop because they'd want to be on time for Ugly Pants Night at the country club”

I think Trump has the management skills of celery, would set your car on fire and then drive to Ugly Pants Night to brag how he fixed your car, that it is now a great car, a car that consumes almost no gasoline, etc..

Hold your nose and vote for Hillary and you're basically kicking the can down the road for four years hoping better nominees appear (which is what we've done for decades imo), voting for Trump or abstaining and you're setting the country back a century. The choice is clear.

[JimHow]

I take it you don't believe in my vomit-out-the-poison analogy Jacques!

[jal]

Haha, no Jim.

More like drinking a worse poison to counter the effects of the first one.

There's one skit by Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks in the 2000 year old man called "Pain"

Here's a link that I hope will work

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjMpyjwyqTARsjoQQ4xCzeRsEw0t

Doctor POTUS

[Racer Chris]

Wow Chris, sounds like you drove past my law office, you should have stopped in!

It was Sunday morning and we were behind schedule, but I did think about visiting.
I was supposed to take the Gray exit but got a little lost in the downpour, so we cut through Lewiston/Auburn to get to Poland Corner Rd.

My brother the farmer is a plastic surgeon in Lewiston, and my youngest brother has a portable lumber mill in the Union area
My dad put up a yurt in Montville so he can stay in Maine when he visits his kids and grandkids,
so we head to Maine at least once a year.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

I'm open to persuasion and would like to understand how abstaining (or voting for one candidate over the other) will cause a "lancing of the boil," etc. Yes at the moment I'm for the status quo (I would hate to have to sell my wine but I assume some gladly would if it would bring about fundamental change [ill defined to be sure]) but if I could be convinced that a third way (or voting for one candidate over the other) would promote my welfare (or maybe even do some good off Maui) in some way I'd consider it. But I'm not going to let my subjective belief that I'm more honest, patriotic or deserving (which I do believe) than either of the candidates cause me to refrain from voting.

[JScott]

Hold your nose and vote for Hillary and you're basically kicking the can down the road for four years hoping better nominees appear (which is what we've done for decades imo), voting for Trump or abstaining and you're setting the country back a century. The choice is clear.

This presumes that your view of Hillary is a mildly disappointing place marker. I don't think she's a better choice than him. I hope she proves me wrong and you can pile a heap of "I told you so" on me in a couple of years.

[jal]

Scott,

I will not pile any "I told you so" in case Hillary wins and does well. No promises, though, if Trump wins and disaster ensues.

[JimHow]

Ah too bad Chris, I was actually in the office on Sunday morning getting ready for a trial.

My view is if we elect Trump we will fall so low that we will get all of the hate and bile out of our system, rebuild the system, and start anew. Kind of like that scene in "Team America: World Police" where he keeps vomiting and rolling around in his own puke until he decides to pick himself up by the bootstraps and proceeds to save the world.

[Racer Chris]

Ah too bad Chris, I was actually in the office on Sunday morning getting ready for a trial.

My view is if we elect Trump we will fall so low that we will get all of the hate and bile out of our system, rebuild the system, and start anew. Kind of like that scene in "Team America: World Police" where he keeps vomiting and rolling around in his own puke until he decides to pick himself up by the bootstraps and proceeds to save the world.

I think Michelle Obama summed the situation up correctly by saying this is already the greatest country in the world.
Electing The Donald would guarantee we are not.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

Since that appears to be what you want, why disenfranchise yourself? Vote Trump/Pence 2016. You can make it happen. Hasten the process. The five new Supreme Court Justices will just have to be the price to pay for the cure. Hell, if the boil pops soon he may not get around to appointing any. Otherwise you hazard grave risk of more festering under a nasty Democratic executive with a lust for money due to your abstention. But I sympathize with your lament about corrupt parties. The principals do act as though they are running a party machine (with all the perks, privileges, entitlements and perceived immunities) than presiding over or carefully and fairly stewarding a process to elicit the will of the people.

[JimHow]

If it weren't for the Supreme Court issue I would possibly vote for Trump as a protest vote, kind of like when we went with the 2005 Burgundy vintage as BWE wine of the year. I also became even more terrified of a Trump presidency after I read that article in the NYT recently about how easy it is for the president, without any interference from his staff or Congress, to drop The Bomb.

So it is a real quandary, one I don't consider lightly. I can't vote for Trump for all the obvious reasons and I can't vote for Hillary because I truly do think she is crooked, lacks the necessary character, has voted to murder too many innocent civilians, is too beholden to big money, is a political coward, is an enabler of her predatory husband, and on and on.

I'll likely vote for the independent candidates, I always kind of liked Bill Weld, I don't know much about the other guy, they actually seem to have that social-liberal/fiscal-conservative combination that has historically appealed to me. I actually believe Trump is more liberal than he is leading us to believe and his isolationism in trade and military issues has a certain appeal to me. The problem with Trump is that, all joking aside, he is mentally unbalanced, a poster child for narcissistic personality disorder.

So, I'm going to vote Independent.

[AlohaArtakaHoundsong]

That may well do it then. I'm sure you're aware of polls showing Clinton beating Trump when just the two candidates are presented, and Trump beating Clinton (by a wider margin) if the choice expands to include the Libertarian and Green Party candidates. Looks like the instrument of boil-lancing may be at hand.

[JimHow]

You see, and I'm really not trying to sound like an asshole here, I agree with Scott, I just don't think Clinton is any better. I'll admit the Supreme Court issue is a big problem, if the Republicans maintain the Senate. But I'm in the Christopher Hitchens camp when it comes to the Clintons. I just truly believe these are really, really bad human beings. I'm just not willing to forgive and forget on the Iraq war. I believe the U.S. government engaged in war crimes there, creating a pretext of WMDs to go in and settle scores. And Hillary was right there voting for it, front and center. I was so pissed off at that "war" that I got on a plane and marched with about 10,000 people from Lafayette Square to the Capitol. And I truly believe Bill Clinton bombed a pharmacy, killing dozens of innocents, to distract from Monica Lewinsky's grand jury testimony. I'm just not willing to get past shit like that. The NYT crowd can compartmentalize this crap if they want… just don't include me in. And I can list dozens of things the Clintons have done over the past 25 years…. No thanks. If I had a gun to my head, I'd vote for Trump. Fortunately, I'm free to vote for somebody else, or not vote at all.

[JimHow]

Watching Al Sharpton right now on MSNBC. I mean, really? This is what the Democratic Party has to offer?

Here is an example of why Donald Trump is going to be EXTREMELY dangerous in this election. This interview was like two days ago. It's as impressive as I've seen him. He seems confident, energetic, happy, fresh, energized. He comes across as a guy who "knows" he is going to win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLcL2fSxGKw

Donald Trump is the anti-Al Sharpton.

[JimHow]

Watching Amy Klobuchar subtly comparing Donald Trump, apparently, to child molesters. God this party is vile.

[Blanquito]

Jim, I really understand how you feel, and of course, like Ted Cruz, we all get to vote our own conscience. But the Iraq war lie, as much as I detested it at the time, was the sin of George Bush and Dick Cheney and their minions. Putting it on Hillary seems very unfair. Bush was going to war come hell or high water, and the Iraq war resolution passed the Senate 77-23. Did you know that Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins, two Senators I believe you admire, voted for the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq in Oct. 2002? Will you never vote for them again because of these votes too?

[JimHow]

Don't get me going on the votes of Olympia and Collins, Patrick, I blasted them.
And while Olympia and I are friends, I've never been a Collins fan.

Watching Beeeyalll right now.
I'm ready to fucking gag.
Was he so "in love" with his little Wellesly queen while Monica was sucking him off in the Oval Office?
OMG, he actually has like a tear in his eyes….


Please. Somebody please kill me. I can't take this fucking worm.
"I kept asking her to marry me…."

Oh my fucking word….

When you were raping and biting the cheeks of your little Arkansas secretaries, were you thinking of Hillary?

What a pig.

You know, back when I was in my early 30s, presidents used to come visit me.

When I met this dink, the Gennifer Flowers scandal had broken for about 72 hours. Even then, as I spent about an hour with him, I remember saying to myself, "This guy is a dink."

A year before, President Bush came to see me. I was a young Democrat, he was an older Republican. I remember saying to myself: "This is such a nice man."

OMG listen to his voice breaking…

Please… Somebody. Put me out of my misery.

[JimHow]

Look at the little Planned Parenthood gals giggling away at this rapist.
I'm going insane.

[JimHow]

OMG he's comparing her to Robert Kennedy.
I'm literally ready to throw up. I mean, I'm not even kidding.

[jal]

Bill was oddly uninspiring. The Democratic convention as a whole is pretty lame.

But again this has very little to do with Hillary, this election for me is only about stopping Trump. A racist, conniving, self aggrandizing, buffoonish demagogue who should not be close to the White House.

And Jim, I hear you, I see where you're coming from but to me it is a no brainer; stop Trump is what I'm voting for.