The 2015 Chateau Giscours and others

[Nicklasss]

At my brother's place, and we will have a nice dinner.

First wine we will have, on the patio, will be the 2015 Chateau Giscours ITNOS. I believe Jim is a great taster, but his mixed review about 2015 make me wondering... I know he is right or maybe wrong, so I'll try to clarify the issue tonight.

Normally some 2014 Ornellaia and a 2008 Ridge Monte Bello should be open later too. Stay tuned.

Nic

[JimHow]

I have 19 bottles of the 2015 Giscours in my cellar and I intend to buy another 12 when they go on sale in NH this fall.

[Racer Chris]

Pour it in a decanter and wait 3 hours.
Cellartracker Notes on 2015 Giscours
In particular, read the notes from Motz and Nutty08.

[Nicklasss]

This 2015 Chateau Giscours is a big Margaux. Highly perfumed with red berries, purple berries, flowers, a bit of soap, and some light spices. Very Margaux on the nose. In mouth, even with 5 hours slow-ox, caressing plush fruit, ripe redcurrants and red cherries. Some sweet oak too. Long final with abundants tannins and concentrated fruit. Excellent and will be impressive in 10-15 years. Tn: 92+.

Next was the 2011 Chateau Clinet. A few weeks ago, a bottle decanted 3 hours took too much air and was good but i was waiting more. This one last night was pop n pour and i'm beginning to think that 2011 is a perfect pnp vintage. Strong blackcurrants on the nose, mixed with black olives, light fresh mushroom, light spices, light wet earth, light brown sugar, some cocoa powder. In mouth, very intense attack on blackcurrants and blueberries, some charcoal mineral, good freshness, great length. Limited by the vintage but excellent. Everybody liked it. Tn: 93.

The 2008 Ridge Monte Bello is still young, even after 6-7 hours slow-ox. But this is just a very concentrated cabernet, that after 10 years is just starting to change. Great perfumed blackcurrants, blackberries, rasberries, with light ginger spice, light oak, light smoke, and more black fruit (prunes?) on the nose. In mouth, rich attack, on blackcurrant syrup, spicy merlot berries, some strict minerals. Even if the mouth is not fully open, very tasty and impressively long. Should complexity and open more with 10 more years. But a very high quality California wine. Tn: 93+.

The 2014 Ornellaia had the same slow-ox time than the Golden State wine. Very fresh nose of blackfruits, more herbs, light burned wood oak, blackcurrants. In mouth, complex and nice, with that strict mouth characteristic of Bolgheri area. Black cherries, blackcurrants, smoky fruit. Also a touch of weed, with a ligther mouth than the 3 previous wines, but the strict elegance of that wine is impressive, as Imwas waiting something bigger. Long noble wood and black cherry finish. I liked it, and guess that the slow-ox was more efficient on that wine. Tn: 93.

Last was the 2004 Chateau Lagrange, that was a good way to finish but more limited wine. It is time to drink it after 14 years, with a medium nose of roasted oak or almonds, strong blackcurrants, and light spices. Also a bit of green peppers. In mouth, medium power, with the same flavors as on the nose, balanced but suffered finishing the night after all the other bigger wines. But typical Lagrange mid off the road style Saint-Julien. Tn: 89-90.

All in all, a very good evening.

Nic

[Frederico]

Forgive my ignorance. What is "slow-ox"? If not pouring the wine into a decanter and letting it rest, does it mean just pulling off the cork and rest the bottle intact?

[AKR]

No one seems to have patience with their young Margaux!

[JimHow]

I'm more enthusiastic about the 2015 Giscours than Nicola.
I agree that it is "big" but it has everything we look for in Margaux.
I'm more in tune with Neal Martin and Jeff Leve who rate it 96 points and call it "the greatest Giscours ever," "the best Giscours since 1961," etc., etc.
My experience with Giscours doesn't go back that far but this was a "wow" wine for me, the best Giscous I've ever tasted, going back to the '80s.

[Nicklasss]

Frederico, slow-ox i did is removing a glass from the bottle and let it wait open.

Jim, this 2015 Giscours is already excellent but will be awesome. I think the 2009 is better at the moment, but that's just me.

Nic

[JimHow]

Well, yes, but doesn't that get to my point.
I mean, when i say a wine "is" great, I'm not just gauging it at this point in time.
I'm sure the 2015 Giscours "will be awesome" when it has more age on it in 15+ years.
But isn't it awesome "now" because of that fact, because it has the stuffing to be "awesome" at age 15?
If Parker, or Martin, or anybody rates a wine 100 now, in barrel, or upon release, what is it going to be like in 15 years? 105 points?
When Neil Martin or Jeff Leve says that the 2015 Giscours is "the best since 1961," does it matter what age the wine is?
So, if the 2009 is "better at the moment," well, sure, 2009 one would think would be more open than the 2015.
So, I guess the point I'm making is that, when we are assessing a wine, at least the way I analyze it, is it fair to say that it is "exellent now but will be awesome" at some future date. It is either excellent, or poor, or aawesome, or pretty good, etc. Now, perhaps your view on the wine can change later on.... The 2003 Pontet Canet may be a perfect example. I thought it was awesome in its youth, now I'm not so sure. Anyway, that's just the way I analyze it, to each his own.

[Musigny 151]

I have followed Giscours, since I tasted the 1979 which was my Eureka wine. It went through a bad patch post 1982, and after a change in ownership that wasn't really a change (long story and lots of law suits) it began to improve in the 1990s. But for me, it wan't until the 2010 that Giscours not only showed as well as before, but changed gear and I think was even better than the great pre slump wines. For me, the 2010 Giscours is the best I have ever tasted. No surprise, as the wines of Margaux were magnificent in 2010. (I always went to Palmer wondering if I would ever taste a wine that might turn into something like the 1961. The 2010 was the first wine that I ever thought might do so. Even the Alter Ego, never a wine I paid much attention to, was excellent.)

As for longevity, the 1970 is going strong. I recently provided a magnum for a friend's tasting. I was not there, but this was his note.


Chateau Giscours 1970

"Someone suggested this was a Margaux vying to be a St. Estephe. Cassis, cedar and mint, flirt on the nose. On the palate opening, you notice the greater density here than you typically experience with most 70’s, and it was fully demonstrative with the remarkable mushroom and sweetbread vol-au-vent. Sultry black fruit, some tobacco, a touch of sous bois at and just past the mid palate. It has marvelous balance, enticing poised depth, and yet some sultry hedonistic verve besides that keeps emerging. Violets and blackberries on the finish, lovely acidity throughout, compelling in its harmonizing of the fleshy and the graceful. A marvelous expression of Giscours. 94-95 Points+"

[Nicklasss]

I agree with you Musigny, about the return of Giscours to high quality red Bordeaux. Strong effort from the Chateau lately. The 2009 and 2015 are strong effort.

Wish I could try a 1970.

On a completely different topic, I was amazed how the 2008 Ridge Monte Bello was excellent, with the nice cabernet fruit, a nice splash of acidity and some strictness/mineral we find normally in... Bordeaux. Maybe deserve an extra point or 2. The length was impressive too.

Nic

[DavidG]

Love the 2009 and especially the 2010.
OK, you guys made me buy a half-case of the 2015.

[JimHow]

Well done, David G, very well done indeed.

[BordeauxNut]

Am I the only one who thinks that comparing the 1961 or 1970 Giscours to the 2015 is a lot like comparing the 1961 Ford Mustang to the current version? Unless you were around in ‘64 and you have a distinct recollection of the wine, I really don’t understand how there’s an analog. How the wines are made today compared to how they were made then seems only vaguely related.

[JimHow]

Ha, amen BordeauxNut, I've always gotten a kick out of that line.

I did read a poignant story a few years back, I think it was in the NYT, or New Yorker, or Paris Review, about a woman who was going through a divorce from her husband of many years, she was reminiscing about how much they used to enjoy drinking their favorite wine in Paris back in the day, Chateau Giscours.

[stefan]

1961 and 1970 Giscours were both excellent and 1964 Giscours was pretty good. I have not tasted the 2015 or any other recent vintage. Giscours was my favorite Margaux (not counting Margaux itself and Palmer, which were too expensive for me back then) before it fell apart in the 1980s.

[BordeauxNut]

So -- prompted by the discussion, I opened a bottle...

First, what I like -- the nose is very 'pretty'. There's some violet, cassis, oak spice and something that is clove-like. It is mid-weight and very balanced. It reminds me of some of the 2005s but with a little less density. The tannins are hard to find -- ripe and powdery. I'm going to go out on a limb (and probably get bashed for saying this) but this is VERY reminiscent of a good but not over-the-top CA cab. There's a bit of heat (serving temp was ~70 -- so, that may be part of it). The finish is very, very long.

AS a side note -- I've been teaching my daughter about wine and having her taste everything I open. Last night we had a bottle of 2004 Sociando Mallet. Tonight she tried this. She was surprised to learn these were both Cabernet-based wines. My wife guessed it to be a Pinot and loved it. She hates Bordeaux. This is very modern in style.

Verdict for me: I like it and bought 6 more bottles and a magnum. I agree that it's solid and a really good value, all things considered. But, it's definitely not old school in style. In the end, I am impressed by the wine's balance and finish; it's hard to argue with all the praise. Maybe not exactly what I look for in Bordeaux normally, but it's really nice wine.

[DavidG]

Jim, I liked your car analogy and especially your thorough description of the wine. Sounds like it’s giving a lot of pleasure now. And it bears little resemblance to a classic 3-year old Bordeaux. The $64,000 question is whether it will develop the same type of complexity with age as the classics, or if it will age like a CA cab? In practical terms, drink it now or cellar it for 15 years?

[felixp21]

I agree with both Jim and the critics that the 2015 is the finest-ever vintage of Giscours. 96 seems a reasonable score to me.
However, it's price has sky-rocketed with all the hype, and if I wanted an excellent Margaux from 2015, I would go for the superb Brane Cantenac. Glorious and much better value. (caveat:I don't know the Giscours prices in USA, but they are crazy in HK and down under)

[robertgoulet]

'15 is the year giscours got busted for the chapitalize incident?

[jckba]

No that was the 2016 vintage.

https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/gisc ... al-395836/

[JimHow]

We can still get the 2015 Giscours in the mid-$50s when it is on sale in New Hampshire.

[jal]

No that was the 2016 vintage.

https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/gisc ... al-395836/

And let's not forget older fraud incidents involving the estate.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/04/worl ... ducts.html

[JCNorthway]

Interesting to read this. I have a vague recollection from when it occurred, but paid little attention to it.

[Blanquito]

I bought 4 bottles each of the 2015 Giscours, d’Issan and Brane Cantenac.

[stefan]

Way to go, Patrick. If you are not sure what you want, buy them all.

[Blanquito]

Variety, the spice of life.

[jal]

Patrick, you are my hero!

[JimHow]

Next NH sale I'm going to load up on even more 2015 Giscours and 2016 Ridge Geyserville.
I had another Geyserville the other night. Stunning.

[Gerry M.]

Next NH sale I'm going to load up on even more 2015 Giscours and 2016 Ridge Geyserville.
I had another Geyserville the other night. Stunning.

Using the $25 dollar coupons I told you about in a PM, I've been slowly liberating the 2015 from the Nashua Store. Tomorrow I plan on taking the last two so I'll have to find another source, lol. I have not yet seen the 2016 Geyserville in NH, at least in Nashua.

Just a comment on Giscours, I'm happy to support them since their pricing has stayed remarkably fair considering where the market has gone. To still be able to buy the 2015 between $55-65 is amazing considering they have been on a run since 2009 making some of the best wines in their history. In 2003 I paid $32/btl, 2009- $59. Compared to this history and the quality of the 2015, it's a bargain.

[DavidG]

Not only did you guys make me buy some of this, you made me How one just ITNOS.

Forward nose with red and purple fruits, toasty oak on opening. Plenty of ripe fruit and tannin, full body, good balance, not yet integrated but all the right stuff is there. Enjoyable enough now but this deserves at least 10-15 years of cellaring to turn into the beauty it’s destined to become. Excellent with great potential.

[JimHow]

Well done indeed, DG.
Yeah, this wine is very young and burly.
I think it is going to evolve into a beautiful Giscours to be consumed in 15-25 years.
The fruit and backbone are there.