Extraordinary tasting in Copenhagen - Bx 1945 vintage

[Musigny 151]

In the words of the immortal Inigo Montoya
Let me explain
No, there is too much, let me sum up
Wine scoring is subjective. Take it as such

Yup.
Way too many variables.

[Nicklasss]

I agree that Jim's unique religious fever for Bordeaux is a bit destabilising.

One day i'll do it : pour a great Beaujolais into a bottle of great Bordeaux, and make it taste to Jim. This is the only way i can have him rating a Beaujolais 97+!

And no, looking at my pasr notes, i never tried any 1945.

On a more serious side, i will repeat myself : you have to taste the wine from the same bottle, with someone else, to be able to understand a bit his nose/palate. I never taste a wine with GreatBxFreak so have a tough time to clearly understand his numbers and how all wine objective/subjective characteristics apply. All i can really get from GBF post is :

1. It is a very rare opportunity and i'm happy GBF reported it.
2. 1940's Léoville Barton looks like a surer bet (maybe true, maybe not).
3. Corbin, Lafite, Margaux and Gruaud Larose were the clear favorite of GBF, in that tasting.
4. I hope i'll be able one day, to taste an old Bordeaux with GBF, to share our love of Bordeaux, and have better impression of the type of wine we each like.

Nic

[sdr]

If your effective rating scale is 95-100 you don’t need to ascribe points. Actually, I liked Broadbent’s star ratings, one though five stars, although he cheated himself by using half stars. Still he was not hesitant to give out one or two stars to anything he thought underperformed and always explained why.

I take notes and use scores solely for myself, the main reason being to help me decide if I want to buy more of that bottle if I should encounter again when I may have forgotten the details. I like Bordeaux a lot but not all of it is a 90+ (excellent, outstanding, great) experience, especially with older examples. If it’s one I have tasting numerous times, it’s especially useful to me to see the spread of my own scores to see how consistent it is - to me.

Stu

[AKR]

Now that the University of California has banned SAT/ACT testing, since it discriminates, maybe the BATF will ban wine scoring, since it too can have disparate impact.

[JimHow]

As a Bordeaux wine enthusiast I enjoy most of the Bordeaux I drink, unless there is a flaw or some such thing.

I even enjoyed the 2013 La Lagune.

[OrlandoRobert]

I still like points as part of our lexicon to evaluate wine and communicate about it, so long as they come with clear narratives. At least for those of us that grew up with a 100-point school grading scale, it’s rather intuitive. An 86 is a solid B, i.e., not a paper or a test with lots of misses or flaws on it. Now that said, I neither hire graduates with an 86-average or regularly drink an 86-point wine. Given the quality of wine at our disposal, my daily drinkers are solid B+ and A-. By way of example, that’s where Lanessan normally falls for me, anywhere from 88 to 92 points. Had a fantastic, mature bottle of 2001 recently that I loved and gave it a solid 89. More than happy to drink that wine any day of the week.

[JimHow]

Yes, I would say 88-92 for Lanessan is consistent with even my perspective, OB.
I don't really assign any dramatic significance to numbers, it's just a fun and fairly meaningless thing to do on a wine website during or after my experience with the wine.

[Chateau Vin]

Now that the University of California has banned SAT/ACT testing, since it discriminates, maybe the BATF will ban wine scoring, since it too can have disparate impact.

I want to be a professional basketball player, but I contend that my height, reach, vertical jump should not be measured and compared against others as this would amount to discrimination...

[JimHow]

It truly is the "pussy generation."

At high school hockey games in Maine, I shit you not, fans are not allowed to boo.

[Chateau Vin]

Really folks, I pulled aside by the interstate and took this picture when I first saw it...

Aaahh...the vagaries of dippy California...

[Chateau Vin]

Ok, coming back to the thread...

I wonder about how far the fills of these old wine bottles are, especially the 100 yr old lanessan. I have never seen a 100 yr old bottle, let alone taste such....

[jal]

Felicity California is the center of the world.

[JimHow]

I wonder about how far the fills of these old wine bottles are, especially the 100 yr old lanessan. I have never seen a 100 yr old bottle, let alone taste such....

Tommy/Gail from DC/CO and I sipped from a 1918 Haut Brion a couple years ago at my house.
It was, um, an experience.

[JimHow]

Actually, Timmy, what was that 100 year old wine we drank at my house when you came by the How abode?
What did you decide it was?

[greatbxfreak]

Chateau Vin,

If you go to my website and look into the tasting of 1918 Bordeaux wines (chapter "Horizontal & Vertical tastings") you will see my note about how was the stand (niveau) for tasted bottle.

This Lanessan 1918 in 1945 tasting had a stand B as far as I remember.

[Claudius2]

Guys
I have some of Parker’s books from the 80s and he scored some wines in the 50s and 60s.
His historic scale was 50 to 100 but he later stopped bothering with low score wines on the basis that he wants to focus on wines to drink not to avoid.
My beef with points is that many tasters are too generous and when I see supermarket wines getting scores like 95+ then I think it is time to give points away.

[Musigny 151]

I think the audience for low scoring wines is pretty small. Nobody is interested in an 85 point wine, if they can buy a 90 point wine for the same amount or less. It is an unfortunate part of the process; that those who buy from point scores can be swayed so easily.

The one exception to the “nobody is interested in the low score syndrome” is when a high flying wine is eviscerated. John Gilman, a close friend, used to devote the occasional article to train wrecks. He reserved his anger for wines with great terroir which were ruined in the cellar and vineyard. Pavie was a frequent visitor, but perhaps the most memorable one was the Cos d’Estournel 2009 which he scored 68. He wrote about the ridiculous overripeness and contempt for the history of the region and the intelligence of its clients. He compared the viscosity to that of motor, and wondered if he wouldn’t prefer to drink the motor oil. It was savage, funny, and a good read.

Not surprisingly, we have many of the same likes and dislikes. I remember tasting the wine with him, and hating it too.

[Nicklasss]

I John Gilman, a close friend, used to devote the occasional article to train wrecks. He reserved his anger for wines with great terroir which were ruined in the cellar and vineyard. Pavie was a frequent visitor, but perhaps the most memorable one was the Cos d’Estournel 2009 which he scored 68. He wrote about the ridiculous overripeness and contempt for the history of the region and the intelligence of its clients. He compared the viscosity to that of motor, and wondered if he wouldn’t prefer to drink the motor oil. It was savage, funny, and a good read.

Not surprisingly, we have many of the same likes and dislikes. I remember tasting the wine with him, and hating it too.

Now i understand why exist the fake wine: a fake 2009 Cos d'Estournel is probably better than the real thing!

Nic

[Racer Chris]

Now i understand why exist the fake wine: a fake 2009 Cos d'Estournel is probably better than the real thing!

Nic

Our friend Jeff Leve gave a 100 point score to a bottle of the real Cos which he opened in 2019, so I suppose it's really a matter of personal taste.

[Musigny 151]

Now i understand why exist the fake wine: a fake 2009 Cos d'Estournel is probably better than the real thing!

Nic

Our friend Jeff Leve gave a 100 point score to a bottle of the real Cos which he opened in 2019, so I suppose it's really a matter of personal taste.

Ain’t that the truth. Parker also gave it 100. And it is definitely a wine that is seriously divisive. Jeff and I have had a few “discussions” about this wine.

I gave it a better score than John, but was very disturbed by how any trace of terroir and character had been so entirely obliterated. It could have been grown hydroponically in Guatemala, flanked by tomatoes.

[greatbxfreak]

Back to subject, please.

[AKR]

It truly is the "pussy generation."

At high school hockey games in Maine, I shit you not, fans are not allowed to boo.

One of our kids friends dads has been banned from all the soccer games.

He is hot tempered and tries to provide input on the officiating.

[Musigny 151]

I used to referee soccer games. There were times that some of the parents were nasty, and one time, a fight broke out and two of the fathers were arrested. One was a lawyer; I think he paid a fine and was banned for three years from attending games. I would have come down on him a lot harder; it was a disgraceful in front of the kids.

[Comte Flaneur]

The problem is sometimes that the parents are more competitive than the kids. That extends also to the class room and exam grades. The other problem though is that the kids get too mollycoddled and lack competitive spirit. They would just rather play with their devices.

[Musigny 151]

The game I was refereeing was for 13 year olds. It was truly pathetic.
The parents were often brutal, and often completely ignorant about the laws of the game. That didn’t stop them. I used to carry the rules in my back pocket, because I was tired of explaining the offside law to them.

The kids who were good wanted to play; for those who weren’t it was for them wasted time.

[jal]

I coached my son's soccer team from the ages of 8-14, same with my daughter.
Boys were a pia, half of them were disruptive, some parents thought their sons were going to get soccer scholarships and criticized everything, including training sessions, tactics, starting line-ups, substitutions, to say nothing of referees. I still have nightmares 15 years later.
Girls were actually a lot more fun, and parents were much better behaved.
Both my kids got certified and refereed kids soccer games, I was usually the assistant on the line and had to explain rules to parents who were berating my kids about offsides.
Some of my best memories were of Pappadoc coming to watch my kids games.

[Musigny 151]

How about those back passes to the goalkeeper by the defenders? That caused a few rows.
I got to the point where when I got the kids together before the game, I told them I would call it every time.

[Comte Flaneur]

I only ever refereed a kids soccer game once and I got so much verbal from the players but worse was the abuse from the touchlines. I thought you know what? This really ain’t worth it.

But I think it is important to get kids out playing sports whatever that maybe because with all their tablets and devices they are increasingly prone to sedentary life styles.

Even if this means awarding prizes to fat kids who come last on sports day.

[stefan]

Gosh, I coached stefanJr's soccer team for years when he was a kid. Never had a problem with parents or referees (this was before the back pass rule). But then the other coaches and I were pretty scary guys and parents were probably afraid to mess with us.

[jal]

How about those back passes to the goalkeeper by the defenders? That caused a few rows.
I got to the point where when I got the kids together before the game, I told them I would call it every time.

That backpass rule is still the cause of one of my nightmares!

[jal]

Gosh, I coached stefanJr's soccer team for years when he was a kid. Never had a problem with parents or referees (this was before the back pass rule). But then the other coaches and I were pretty scary guys and parents were probably afraid to mess with us.

Ah, 'twas a kinder gentler time then....

[Comte Flaneur]

Back to subject, please.

As a latecomer to this thread I just to say an amazing tasting to mark VE Day, Izak and thank you for taking the time to initiate this thread.

As you say only ‘good bottles’ at that age and you must have been relieved that someone else was supplying the wines.

It rekindled wistful memories of the most disappointing tasting I ever attended - a 1947 horizontal at The Square here in London 7-8 years back.

Compounding my misery it cost me £1200 and most of the wines were over the hill/buggered, or just plain dirty. Only one barely passed muster, Ch. Margaux.

I don’t know how many of wines were fakes, but there are a lot of fakes going around - particularly in vintages like 1945 and 1947...in fact, Maureen (Downey) told me that there are probably more fakes than genuine articles in these fabled vintages.

I have tried a few 1945s, including Lafite and LLC and while there was undoubtedly a Churchillian sense of occasion and history, objectively none of them really moved me. I think the hallmark of the vintage from my limited sample is ‘immortality’ - but they were all bereft of any charm.

I must admit if I had held onto a wine for 75 years and it only garnered 86 points I would be pretty gutted. These days I wouldn’t choose to drink an 86 point wine. Even on a Monday night: 88 points is about as low as I am prepared to go these days.

[Tom In DC]

Certainly more fakes than genuine bottles of the great wines in truly geriatric vintages (basically anything pre-1959 and possibly through 1961) by now. One of the ironic bits of the counterfeiting business is that everyone is conditioned to expect and accept mediocre old bottles. So a fake bottle has a very wide range within which it may perform and still be believable. There are no great wines, only great bottles, right?

[Tom In DC]

Ian, if you held onto a bottle for 75 years, you'd be unlikely to have the taste buds to tell if it was gutted, let alone you!

[greatbxfreak]

Tom,

The correct interpretation is - there's no great vintages, only great bottles.

Ian,

Could Maureen say, how many faked bottles of 2nd-5th Cru Classes + Cru Bourgeois + lower end Saint-Emilions and Pomerols she did find fake? Lanessan, Bouscaut , Corbin? Fake Leoville Barton with original Barton & Guestier label. Are original corks fake? Common guys - you are shooting sparrows with cannons!

As far as I know she circles in collections with wines 10-20-30 times more expensive.

I feel some posters here try to discredit my tasting coming with some strange accusations. Points are points and are subjective to the particular evening. Storage/provenance is important and 86 points given indicates that wine was great before.

Don't forget that 1945 was mostly made by women as 1918 and there wasn't blending of all barrels, meaning that many wines were bottled barrel by barrel.

So beat it!