9/9 2005 Bordeaux tasting dinner

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:54 am

At Noize last night in central London.

Right bank flight

For this flight my expectations were modest and I was pleasantly surprised by both of these wines. In particular I enjoyed the Beauregard more than I expected to, and more than others did.

Roc De Cambes, Cotes De Bourg

This had a striking and exuberant primary red and black-fruited attack with menthol and decent though less spectacular follow through on the palate, and nice grippy tannins, before developing beefy bovril flavours. Perhaps the most hedonistic wine last night it carried its 14.3% abv well. ****(92)

Beauregard, Pomerol

Similar but less expressive, more toned down entry this developed gorgeous bramble, plummy and chocolately notes, then some smoky, truffly expression. Altogether it had a little bit more complexity than the Roc. Quite a revelation, 13%. **** (93)

What a great start to the evening!

Haut-Medoc flight

In this flight we came down with a bit of a jolt

Poujeaux

Sweet, fruity, dusty nose. Really one dimensional, simple and awkward, on the palate. A suggestion round the table that it was possibly corked but it probably wasn’t. I would not even be inclined to drink more than a glass of this. Not sure what happened here because as we discussed the 2010 (like the legendary 1997) is glorious ** 83

La Lagune

Meaty, smoky, hickory - horsey, funky - nose. This is a big chunky, barnstorming, wine, with a dense core and ripe, fruity, hearty, full-bodied palate. It is in the early stages of its drinking window and may improve and smooth out over time. It is great fun already, but really it lacks the class and finesse of younger vintages of this estate. It is very 2005. *** 89

Others rated the La Lagune significantly higher than I did. I was expecting something a bit classier and less agricultural. As for the Poujeaux I just suspect they dropped the ball in 2005.

Margaux flight

We got back into a positive groove with this flight

Du Tertre

What a lovely wine! This has 20% Cabernet franc and 5% Petit Verdot in the blend in addition to the 45% Cabernet Sauvignon and 30% merlot, and it showed. It has alluring floral, peppery and tobacco notes, and a pleasant cool-fruited quality sometimes lacking in other wines in this vintage, but at the same time it is ripe, inky and youthful, and will be even better in five years ***(*) 92

Brane-Cantenac

I was expecting this to be up there as a contender for wine of the night and while it was a good wine it ultimately under-delivered. It is still quite coiled with mineral and iodine notes, though the Margaux berries are starting to peep their heads out. It is not as evolved as the exuberant 2009, not quite in the same league as the 2015 and 2016 vintages, but clearly one to revisit in five years. ***(*) 91

St Julien flight

A step up in quality here, the flight of the night

Beychevelle

A wine with a marvellous future, which atypically has been drinking well for at least five years. This is a complete wine and was on good form again last night, like it’s flight mate it has a lot of finesse for what can be a bruiser of a vintage. It is still quite primary with rich black fruits, cool fruited Cabernet overlaid with plummy and menthol notes, rich fruitcake, underbrush, porcini mushrooms and truffle. It has a satiny texture and is lighter on its feet than the other wines here. ****(*) 95

Gruaud-Larose

Another class act with none of the funkiness one associates with older editions of this brand. It is lively and crisp and like it’s flight mate an agile wine for the vintage, already drinking beautifully with a bit more left in the locker. Lovely leafy and graphite notes. This is one under-rated wine ****(1/2) 94

Two wines which would grace any cellar.

Pauillac flight

Batailley

Classical Pauillac and an exceptional Batailley, showing none of the rusticity that one sometimes associates with older vintages. Coal dust, graphite, raw beef hide and Pauillac fruits through and through. Big-framed, but not heavy, with pleasing grip and edge, this is a fabulous Batailley, which outclassed it’s flight mate. ****92

Grand Puy Lacoste

Like Brazil in the World Cup a pre-tournament favourite, this was surprising accessible, open and a bit soft and cuddly next to its sterner flight mate. It is nicely red-fruited but ultimately falls short because it lacks focus and precision, a bugbear of this estate which seems to be fixed with the 2014 vintage. ***1/2 90

Sauternes

Rieussec - pitch perfect ****1/2 94

Last night confirmed 2005’s credentials as a ripe, strapping, vintage. The wines are generally accessible now, but many will benefit from another 5-10 years of ageing. It is a warm vintage characterised by wines with a lot of power and mid-palate density, with big, burly, tannins and varying degrees of finesse.

Some of the wines conspicuously lack finesse, elegance and even the exquisite balance that one associates with Bordeaux. I found that in some of the Bordeaux zoom verticals I participated in last year where the 2005s generally showed less well than the 2009s and 2010s, which seem to have moved the game forward.

It is still a very good vintage, however, and worth having some in your cellar. I think aged 16, these 2005s have reached the point where they have become scarcer and prices are on the move.

Beychevelle was my and the group’s wotn but it was close and opinions were evenly spread out.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:08 pm

Ian
The only wine I have that you tasted is a case of Gruaud Larose which was reasonably priced here. I have a few other cases incl Lafleur and Langoa Barton, plus a few odd bottles of other wines.

I am wondering if they are developing as well as expected? The vintage is now achieving high prices at auction and I’m not sure they are as good as they were cracked up to be?

Cheers
Mark

Jay Winton · Post by **Jay Winton** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:36 pm

I've been wondering about the 2005 LL. Thanks for the update, now if I can only locate my bottles!

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:07 pm

Fantastic and useful notes, Ian. I own the du Tertre, Beychevelle and Batailley in good quantities, which is pleasing after your read. I am still mostly sitting on my 05s, figuring they will just keep getting better and better. But it is clearly an uneven vintage.

jal · Post by **jal** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:11 pm

I skipped this vintage almost completely and after reading your notes, Ian, I feel somewhat vindicated. This was supposed to be the first vintage of the century after the 2000, reading your impressions it feels very ho hum.

marcs · Post by **marcs** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:19 pm

Giant chunky alcoholic "big" vintages like 2005 and 2010 were systematically overrated IMO

This thing of Gruaud being underrated is a drum I've been banging on for some time around here. Your characterization of the Gruaud as "agile", "lively", and "leafy" (and not funky like Gruaud used to be) matches my recent experience with vintages like 2004, 2010, 2015. They make very balanced wines with good acidity and complexity that are notably lighter and more expressive than a lot of other Bordeaux (even good ones) that have gone in the direction of emphasizing size and impact. But they still have solid fruit and depth.

Disappointed in your description of GPL -- I invested pretty heavily in that vintage (I think I have a half case), but the last bottle I had was kind of similar to your experience. Had great size and depth but lacked some focus and precision. I maybe would have rated it 91 or 92 instead of 90 (totally subjective differences) but it's not the 95 point wine I thought it would be when I tasted it young.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:59 pm

This report is very interesting for me as I have been considering purchasing more 2005s.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:39 pm

marcs wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:19 pm Disappointed in your description of GPL -- I invested pretty heavily in that vintage (I think I have a half case), but the last bottle I had was kind of similar to your experience. Had great size and depth but lacked some focus and precision. I maybe would have rated it 91 or 92 instead of 90 (totally subjective differences) but it's not the 95 point wine I thought it would be when I tasted it young.

Same here. I was thoroughly impressed with a half bottle of the 05 GPL on release, but it has merely been good-to-very-good since (in the 90 to 92 pt range).

One 05 that impressed me a couple of years ago (to my surprise) was the St. Pierre. Here's my note:
From half bottle, had next to the 2005 GPL... Richer, more precocious wine than the Pauillac, with a spicy expressive nose. There's a pretty big wine here, that is refined on the backend with enough acid and structure to stand up the fruit. Really nothing cloying or garish at all, just a touch a candied fruit and a hint of caramel in the bouquet show any modernist vibe. I expected to dislike like this, but in 05 at least their approach worked, combining a classic young Bordeaux profile with a little extra oomph and jazz. Young, but fun to drink now. If these integrates more and displays some complexity with age, this will be killer, but excellent already. 93 pts

For better or for worse, I still have an absurd amount of 05s (many in half bottles) despite having unloaded a lot at auction over the years:
-Grand Puy Lacoste -- 3 bottles and 13 half-bottles
-Calon Segur -- 13 half-bottles
-Carbonnieux (rouge) -- 4 bottles and 8 half-bottles
-St. Pierre -- 3 bottles and 8 half-bottles
-Brane Cantenac -- 4 bottles and 6 half-bottles
-Armailhac -- 3 bottles and 6 half-bottles
-Tour St. Bonnet -- 8 bottles
-Beychevelle -- 7 bottles
-Boyd Cantenac -- 7 bottles
-Cantemerle -- 7 bottles
-Domaine de Chevalier Rouge -- 7 bottles
-d'Issan -- 3 bottles and 4 half-bottles
-Duhart Milon -- 7 bottles
-Lagrange -- 7 bottles
-Sociando Mallet -- 7 bottles
-Batailley -- 6 bottles
-La Gaffeliere -- 5 bottles
-Lagune -- 3 bottles and 2 half-bottles
-Lanessan --2 bottles and 3 half-bottles
-Montrose -- 5 half-bottles
-Carmes Haut Brion -- 4 bottles
-Figeac -- 4 half-bottles
-Haut Batailley -- 4 half-bottles
-Siran -- 4 bottles
-Chauvin -- 3 bottles
-Giscours -- 3 bottles
-Rouget -- 3 bottles
-Belair -- 2 bottles
-Bienfaisance -- 2 bottles
-Gurgue -- 2 bottles
-Pipeau -- 2 half-bottles
... and single bottles from half a dozen chateau...

AKR · Post by **AKR** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:42 pm

That Batailley sounds great; thanks for updating on that.

Ianjaig · Post by **Ianjaig** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:05 pm

Comte Flaneur wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:54 am As for the Poujeaux I just suspect they dropped the ball in 2005.

I'm not so sure that's the case. I had one in 17 and another in 19. Both were great.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:22 pm

Blanquito wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:39 pm
marcs wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:19 pm Disappointed in your description of GPL -- I invested pretty heavily in that vintage (I think I have a half case), but the last bottle I had was kind of similar to your experience. Had great size and depth but lacked some focus and precision. I maybe would have rated it 91 or 92 instead of 90 (totally subjective differences) but it's not the 95 point wine I thought it would be when I tasted it young.
Same here. I was thoroughly impressed with a half bottle of the 05 GPL on release, but it has merely been good-to-very-good since (in the 90 to 92 pt range).

One 05 that impressed me a couple of years ago (to my surprise) was the St. Pierre. Here's my note:
From half bottle, had next to the 2005 GPL... Richer, more precocious wine than the Pauillac, with a spicy expressive nose. There's a pretty big wine here, that is refined on the backend with enough acid and structure to stand up the fruit. Really nothing cloying or garish at all, just a touch a candied fruit and a hint of caramel in the bouquet show any modernist vibe. I expected to dislike like this, but in 05 at least their approach worked, combining a classic young Bordeaux profile with a little extra oomph and jazz. Young, but fun to drink now. If these integrates more and displays some complexity with age, this will be killer, but excellent already. 93 pts

For better or for worse, I still have an absurd amount of 05s (many in half bottles) despite having unloaded a lot at auction over the years:
-Grand Puy Lacoste -- 3 bottles and 13 half-bottles
-Calon Segur -- 13 half-bottles
-Carbonnieux (rouge) -- 4 bottles and 8 half-bottles
-St. Pierre -- 3 bottles and 8 half-bottles
-Brane Cantenac -- 4 bottles and 6 half-bottles
-Armailhac -- 3 bottles and 6 half-bottles
-Tour St. Bonnet -- 8 bottles
-Beychevelle -- 7 bottles
-Boyd Cantenac -- 7 bottles
-Cantemerle -- 7 bottles
-Domaine de Chevalier Rouge -- 7 bottles
-d'Issan -- 3 bottles and 4 half-bottles
-Duhart Milon -- 7 bottles
-Lagrange -- 7 bottles
-Sociando Mallet -- 7 bottles
-Batailley -- 6 bottles
-La Gaffeliere -- 5 bottles
-Lagune -- 3 bottles and 2 half-bottles
-Lanessan --2 bottles and 3 half-bottles
-Montrose -- 5 half-bottles
-Carmes Haut Brion -- 4 bottles
-Figeac -- 4 half-bottles
-Haut Batailley -- 4 half-bottles
-Siran -- 4 bottles
-Chauvin -- 3 bottles
-Giscours -- 3 bottles
-Rouget -- 3 bottles
-Belair -- 2 bottles
-Bienfaisance -- 2 bottles
-Gurgue -- 2 bottles
-Pipeau -- 2 half-bottles
... and single bottles from half a dozen chateau...

Sell me some!

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:48 pm

Ian, for those of us looking for a tertiary bottle, how far away are the 05 Beychevelle, Batailley, etc?

Nicklasss · Post by **Nicklasss** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:44 am

Great report Comte.

At the opposite of other, i think that your report on those 2005 is very encouraging, and confirming it is a special and excellent to great vintage. You rated 7 bottles on 10 at 91 pts or higher, on that very ecclectic group. And i consider you a fair, tough, classical palate grader. The San Julian seem top to me.

Yes, the vintage seems to have that effect that depending on many variables, the different chateau wines will be giving their best at different ages. A puzzle for the consummer, but if you have some bottles of each of your chateau, you will be on target one day or the other.

For blanquito, don't worry, you will have lot of fum with the Tour St Bonnet (the dark side of the Moon), Cantemerle (i can see a classicism in the Magdelaine style) , Duhart Milon (what a super classical style) and Batailley (ripe for a Batailley, but still very Pauillac).

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:44 am

Blanquito wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:48 pm Ian, for those of us looking for a tertiary bottle, how fair awayvv be are the 05 Beychevelle, Batailley, etc?

A long way Patrick. I would say two Blanquitos.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:53 am

Nicklasss wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:44 am Great report Comte.

At the opposite of other, i think that your report on those 2005 is very encouraging, and confirming it is a special and excellent to great vintage. You rated 7 bottles on 10 at 91 pts or higher, on that very ecclectic group. And i consider you a fair, tough, classical palate grader. The San Julian seem top to me.

Yes, the vintage seems to have that effect that depending on many variables, the different chateau wines will be giving their best at different ages. A puzzle for the consummer, but if you have some bottles of each of your chateau, you will be on target one day or the other.

For blanquito, don't worry, you will have lot of fum with the Tour St Bonnet (the dark side of the Moon), Cantemerle (i can see a classicism in the Magdelaine style) , Duhart Milon (what a super classical style) and Batailley (ripe for a Batailley, but still very Pauillac).

I think that is an accurate reading Nic. My intention was not to disparage the vintage. Though if you like elegant, nuanced claret, with finesse, then this is probably not a vintage for you. Of the ten wines, three were disappointing - the Poujeaux, the La Lagune and the GPL. I would not describe the Brane Cantenac as disapppointing, just not in a great place yet. All the others I would love to own and I bought three bottles of Beauregard for £35 each ex tax. Given the prices are on the move the only other one I am considering purchasing is Gruaud Larose for £78 all in. I think Marc is right about this estate. One 2005 which I do own which I think is tops is Duhart Milon. I think it works very well in 2005 because Duhart has its own little cool microclimate.

jal · Post by **jal** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:42 pm

I did not think you were disparaging the vintage, Ian. I just read your descriptions and thought that these wines will not be to my liking.
Stefan will be very pleased to read that La Lagune lived up (or should I say lived down) to its reputation as an awful swill.

stefan · Post by **stefan** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:14 pm

JoelD · Post by **JoelD** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:00 pm

Good check in on 05, Ian. I've always been a bit higher on the left bank wines than some of this group. Although I do worry that some of that tasting was done a few years ago when I still liked or even preferred some of the bigger/riper wines.

Looks like as usual, Beychevelle and Gruaud Larose need to be backfilled

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:47 pm

Claudius2 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:08 pm Ian
The only wine I have that you tasted is a case of Gruaud Larose which was reasonably priced here. I have a few other cases incl Lafleur and Langoa Barton, plus a few odd bottles of other wines.

I am wondering if they are developing as well as expected? The vintage is now achieving high prices at auction and I’m not sure they are as good as they were cracked up to be?

Cheers
Mark

The Langoa 2005 is a bit of a freak wine; the only vintage I have come across where I prefer it to the Barton, and by a large margin. I tasted it en primeur, and then again I popped a bottle a year or so ago, and it was just entering early maturity, but then I like my wines with quite a bit of bottle age. You did good buying it, grasshopper.

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:52 pm

Thanks Ian. The Beauregard has always been an under the radar Pomerol. Quality is still good, but the prices have been inching up.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:15 pm

I wonder how St Estephe did in 05. Seems like It would be a good vintage for places like Montrose and Calon Segur, both of which I own but have yet to taste.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:25 pm

Blanquito wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:15 pm I wonder how St Estephe did in 05. Seems like It would be a good vintage for places like Montros and Kalon Seger, both of which I own but have yet to taste.

Montrose is fantastic. Needs 25 years, frankly. Start trying in 2030.

greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:57 pm

Yet another bull....description/comments on La Lagune from Ian.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:29 pm

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:47 pm
Claudius2 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:08 pm Ian
The only wine I have that you tasted is a case of Gruaud Larose which was reasonably priced here. I have a few other cases incl Lafleur and Langoa Barton, plus a few odd bottles of other wines.

I am wondering if they are developing as well as expected? The vintage is now achieving high prices at auction and I’m not sure they are as good as they were cracked up to be?

Cheers
Mark
The Langoa 2005 is a bit of a freak wine; the only vintage I have come across where I prefer it to the Barton, and by a large margin. I tasted it en primeur, and then again I popped a bottle a year or so ago, and it was just entering early maturity, but then I like my wines with quite a bit of bottle age. You did good buying it, grasshopper.

Funny you should say that Mark - I made the same point on Langoa vs Leoville in a parallel discussion on the UK wine pages board this evening, pasted below, (great minds…)

****

There are lots of really good accessible 2005s. Quite a lot of people I mix with, notably on this forum and on BWE, seem to equate tertiary qualities with being ready to drink; in other words the wine is only ready when the fruit recedes and it becomes tertiary, which as Alex R never tires of pointing out is nonsense because some palates, like his, prefer to drink these wines in their exuberant youth. The benevolent dictator on BWE is famous for drinking his Bordeaux young. There is no wrong or right. It is down to individual preference.

Thursday reinforced most of my impressions of the 2005 vintage. I remember getting pushback last year for pointing out some of the deficiencies of this vintage relative to other better vintages like 2009, 2010 and 2016 after Zoom tastings, but all of those impressions have been vindicated. I have a pretty good bucket list of 2005s now, and a good understanding of the vintage. I still think overall it is a very good vintage but it has been left behind by what has followed it.

Overall impressions of the 2005 below, off the top of my head, without going through the rigmoral of trawling through notes - I am probably missing out quite a few I have tried at tastings over the years; starting from the top of the Medoc

Sociando Mallet - the best Sociando I have ever tried; outstanding
Montrose - fabulous big framed wine, will improve but very enjoyable now; but behind the ‘10 and cannot hold a candle to the ‘16
Cos D’Estournel - big, modern and awkward (one for laying down and avoiding?)
Duhart-Milon - a cool micro climate and a brilliant 2005, I like it as much as Beychevelle
Mouton - highly lauded by the critics, but very backward, not a fan; much prefer the 2002 and 2008 Moutons
Pontet-Canet - outstanding, IMO the best wine produced at this estate between 2000 and 2010 (which includes two RMP 100 pointers)
GPL - see above, I think it lacks precision
Batailley - generally not a fan of this estate, but I am of the 05 (above)
Pichon Baron - triumphant, FG quality, and terrific vfm
Pichon Lalande - atypically forward for an 05; really nice grog but not in the same league as Baron
LLC - excellent-outstanding, but needs 10 + years
Leoville Barton - one of the least harmonious Bartons after 2003, pass
Langoa - a better bet than Leoville in 2005 probably for once even in absolute terms
Branaire Ducru & Lagrange - backward last time I tried them, but good potential
Gruaud & Beychevelle - excellent/outstanding - see above
Poujeaux - poor on Thursday, awaiting Leon’s rematch
Chasse Spleen - was served this blind - big, ripe, gawky and clumsy; unlike Bordeaux
Palmer - has evolved a long way in the last five years so approachable now, excellent but I think the 10 and 15 are better
Giscours - ‘puckering’ when I tried it last year on zoom, good potential, but Du Tertre (see above) is a better bet for drinking now. Also the 10, 15 and 16 are clearly better than the 05 Giscours
Brane Cantenac - same story as Giscours
La Lagune - see discussion above, I was disappointed
Cantemerle - still v. backward but good potential
Haut-Bailly - gawky, clumsy and out of sorts, shown up by the 2009 and 2010
La Conseillante - sensational, still on the ascendency - wotv contender
Angelus - ghastly
Pavie - an abomination

This is the verdict of the Southwold crowd who named La Mission as wotv - not tried it but I think it is 14.4% abv

https://www.farrvintners.com/blog/post.php?post=246

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:33 am

“Angelus - ghastly.”

Awesome, a wine that went crazy expensive while even a future still as Parker howled at the moon.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:39 am

This thread is fire! Love it.

Fuck Angelus and Pavie. I concur.

Claudius2 · Post by **Claudius2** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:52 am

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:47 pm
Claudius2 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:08 pm Ian
The only wine I have that you tasted is a case of Gruaud Larose which was reasonably priced here. I have a few other cases incl Lafleur and Langoa Barton, plus a few odd bottles of other wines.

I am wondering if they are developing as well as expected? The vintage is now achieving high prices at auction and I’m not sure they are as good as they were cracked up to be?

Cheers
Mark
The Langoa 2005 is a bit of a freak wine; the only vintage I have come across where I prefer it to the Barton, and by a large margin. I tasted it en primeur, and then again I popped a bottle a year or so ago, and it was just entering early maturity, but then I like my wines with quite a bit of bottle age. You did good buying it, grasshopper.

If it is starting to enter its drinking window I'll pull the case out of the storage unit soon and try it.
I did not like the 06 very much, which I drank before the 05 - rather thin and bland, so you have raised my hopes for the 05.
I don't normally buy Langoa Barton as over the yeas I've found it rather variable and more disappointments than successes.
cheers
Mark

greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:12 am

I hadn't tried that many 2005s recently, and I think this vintage was the first one when winemakers focused on the importance of grapes obtaining perfect phenolic ripeness inside and outside.

For me, this vintage, which was extremely easy to make according to winemakers because of the outstanding quality of grapes, stands more or less in the shadow of 2010. The latter has better tannin, midpalate and complexity.

A couple of wines I'd like to comment on.

Angelus - change of style beginning with 2015 when Hubert de Bouard passed the duties to his daughter, Stephanie. Believe me, I haven't been a fan of this wine after mind-boggling 1989 and 1990, following vintages being over-extracted and dominated by 100% new oak, but she has transformed the wine to elegance, finesse and smoother version. 2016, 2018, 2019 and 2020 are exceptional.

Pichon Comtesse - Nicolas Glumineau came in in 2012, and Comtesse rose a great deal in quality.

Pontet Canet - I don't know if I'm sure about this wine. Some vintages taste weaker after bottling. With a new winemaker and Alfred's daughter, Justine, we will see.

Beychevelle - Philippe Blanc maintains a fine work since his arrival at this property in 1995. I tasted 2006 recently and it was 100% St.Julien, pure, stylish and fine taste of CS.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:29 am

…And GPL disappoints again.

greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:48 am

No news with GPL. Has been underperforming for a long time. 2020 is disappointing.

Situated not that far from Lynch Bages with the same fine soil but clearly not at the level of LB. There are some not classified wines better than GPL in Pauillac.

Comte Flaneur · Post by **Comte Flaneur** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:37 am

Interesting what you say Izak about Angelus and the daughter taking over. I tried the 2010 a few years ago and it was similar to the 2005 maybe not quite as awful. As you say 2015 was when the daughter took over, but this wine is just too expensive to buy a wine to experiment with.

If this is the case then this is similar to what is happening at Troplong Mondot, which started dialling it down around 2017.

Both Marks I remember being impressed by the Langoa way back in 2014 when Lilian Sartorious brought it long to a London tasting.

As for GPL I was under the impression that things stepped up with the 2014 vintage, while the 2016 competes head to head with Lynch and the Pichons.

OrlandoRobert · Post by **OrlandoRobert** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:17 pm

Comte Flaneur wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:37 am Interesting what you say Izak about Angelus and the daughter taking over. I tried the 2010 a few years ago and it was similar to the 2005 maybe not quite as awful. As you say 2015 was when the daughter took over, but this wine is just too expensive to buy a wine to experiment with.

If this is the case then this is similar to what is happening at Troplong Mondot, which started dialling it down around 2017.

Both Marks I remember being impressed by the Langoa way back in 2014 when Lilian Sartorious brought it long to a London tasting.

As for GPL I was under the impression that things stepped up with the 2014 vintage, while the 2016 competes head to head with Lynch and the Pichons.

And therein lies one of the problems with these historic estates toying with formulas, hiring these ubiquitous “star” consultants, chasing critics’ points and trends. It may work, for a while. And then many went OTT. We are being told that some have dialed back, but I’ve already written off most of them, and then like you, no way will I drop their current prices to check back in. Think, Angelus, Cos, Pape, Lascombes, Troplong, et al. Unlikely they I will ever buy one again. I have only lone 2005 Cos, the rest, bye bye.

robert goulet · Post by **robert goulet** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:40 pm

Also ghastly

SHL..... 2005 is a total fail

Granted, tasted early on in its life, but displayed no redeeming qualities

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:55 pm

Robert and I have fairly similar palates, so his comments are not too far from mine. That being said, I prefer the Angelus to him, not that I would ever buy it at 20% of its price, but scattered among all that ripeness is a smidgeon of terroir. Pavie has obliterated almost every trace of it, and most of the Dererencourt wines are for me totally amorphous, including some pretty good terroir such as DDC. Terroir such as Pavie and Angelus is disappearing into too much ripe fruit , and that is a problem. I recently had a half bottle of the Cos 2009. Ouch. A nasty, fat, slimy, Tammy Faye wine, with ample bosoms and inches of make up. I think Cos dialed back a little after that, but a 2016 I tasted was still way too ripe for my liking.

Which brings me to Izak’s point of phenolic ripeness. I agree with him that this is around 2005 we saw winemakers change their definition of ripeness. Unlike him, I don’t think this is a good thing, as it led to far too many 14.5% wines, and the loss of terroir, precision, acidity and character. For me Bordeaux is at its very best when it is barely ripe, there is good acidity and the wine is balanced. Once you hit 14%, you really have to be pretty good to make balanced wines, and 14.5% or more is even tougher. Which means I prefer 2014 to 2009 and 2015, and especially 2010 Right Bank.

greatbxfreak · Post by **greatbxfreak** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:01 pm

Musigny 151,

Jean Guillaume Prats came to Cos in 1998 and left in 2013. He was responsible for the heavy stuff with over-extraction and high alcohol. He was replaced then by Aymeric de Gironde who scaled Cos down so it tasted of terroir not the fruit at the verge of overripeness and 15% alcohol! The owner, Reybier, has since then maintained the classic style.

Aymeric de Gironde went to Troplong Mondot in 2017 and scaled this wine significantly down as well.

You are forgetting to mention the 2016 vintage which is barely 14% alcohol in many places.

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:25 pm

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:55 pm Which brings me to Izak’s point of phenolic ripeness. I agree with him that this is around 2005 we saw winemakers change their definition of ripeness. Unlike him, I don’t think this is a good thing, as it led to far too many 14.5% wines, and the loss of terroir, precision, acidity and character. For me Bordeaux is at its very best when it is barely ripe, there is good acidity and the wine is balanced.

Nice summary, and I couldn’t agree more. I get what Ian is saying when he calls some wine making ‘agricultural’, but I would much rather have an agricultural wine than an engineered one.

Musigny 151 · Post by **Musigny 151** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:42 pm

greatbxfreak wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:01 pm Musigny 151,

Jean Guillaume Prats came to Cos in 1998 and left in 2013. He was responsible for the heavy stuff with over-extraction and high alcohol. He was replaced then by Aymeric de Gironde who scaled Cos down so it tasted of terroir not the fruit at the verge of overripeness and 15% alcohol! The owner, Reybier, has since then maintained the classic style.

Aymeric de Gironde went to Troplong Mondot in 2017 and scaled this wine significantly down as well.

You are forgetting to mention the 2016 vintage which is barely 14% alcohol in many places.

Even Prats realized he had overstepped with the 2009, as 2010 was definitely scaled back. Last vintage of Cos I tasted was 2015, but even pre Prats with the the exception of 1996 and to a lesser extent 1986, I have never really liked the wine, so never sought it out in modern vintages.

I have heard good things of dialed back Troplong and also Tertre Roteboeuf, but again not tasted the younger wines.

And yes I agree with you 2016 is special (the Mouton is unbelievable) but in my earlier post, I was contrasting the more highly regarded 2015 against the more classical 2014 to demonstrate what I meant by overripe if phenolically ripe grapes.
I far preferred 2014.

jal · Post by **jal** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:35 pm

Musigny 151 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:42 pm
Even Prats realized he had overstepped with the 2009, as 2010 was definitely scaled back. Last vintage of Cos I tasted was 2015, but even pre Prats with the the exception of 1996 and to a lesser extent 1986, I have never really liked the wine, so never sought it out in modern vintages.

Oh, come on Mark, 1989 Cos is exceptional! I have a case of the 1990 but have not tasted it yet. Waiting for the proper occasion

Blanquito · Post by **Blanquito** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:46 pm

My favorite Cos is the 1990, Jal. It showed sensationally at BWE Denver ‘19.

JimHow · Post by **JimHow** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:11 pm

I still remember Musigny decanting a ‘96 Cos in a coffee pot, I want to say that was in Boston, but what would Musigny have been doing in Boston.