Bordeaux Wine Enthusiasts

Re the Aquitaine Papers thread I am conducting this poll, bearing in mind Jim ‘Jilted Lover’ How and Nic’s comments regarding Lynch-Bages in that thread.

Maybe this is a good way to resolve disagreements on where estates should be ranked.

Maybe it should also be specified that people need to vote on the way the current classification has been conducted, which includes "super seconds". The vote can be adjusted later if there is a vote that ratifies to remove super seconds.

1982-1990, LB was a super second, maybe even first growth quality with simply tremendous wines in 82, 83, 85, 86, 88, 89 and 90, but in my experience that was its golden era which it has not since replicated. But there have been some excellent wines in the years since — 96, 00, 09, etc — so I voted 2nd Growth, not super second.

Jean Michel Cazes made lovely wines: less convinced by the glossier ones made by Jean Charles.

Jean Michel Cazes made lovely wines: less convinced by the glossier ones made by Jean Charles.

Yes that seems like a big issue to me.

Blanquito wrote:1982-1990, LB was a super second, maybe even first growth quality with simply tremendous wines in 82, 83, 85, 86, 88, 89 and 90.

Come on Pat. Was Trump your favorite, maybe even First Growth President?

As excellent or touching Heaven has been Lynch Bages some specific vintages, never really challenging First Growth. The 89 is the only one i can think of starting challenging First Growth, BUT... what else?

Nic

Musigny 151 wrote:Jean Michel Cazes made lovely wines: less convinced by the glossier ones made by Jean Charles.

What year did Charles take over?

Guys
I can only assume that those classing LB as a third growth or below will be taken by force to the BWE equivalent of a “struggle session”, found guilty immediately by the Tribunal and then gulaged. Normal jurisprudence will of course be waived.

To plead my innocence in this matter I classed it as a second growth but not a super second.

During the 80s I thought another Pauillac that was outstanding was Pichon Lalande, with its lushness and balance yet it also seems to have slipped a little after that - as did Ducru Beaucaillou - both were always personal favorites but have escalated in price since then. So now I am happy to “settle” for wines such as Branaire, Lagrange, Calon Segur, various Margaux wines (Priure Lichine, Ferriere, Giscours, Dufort V, D’Issan etc) and the middle ranked Merlot wines in the right bank. I also think I like Merlot blends better the older I get. Decades ago I bought 90% Medoc but now I am even partial to Pessac L.

Blanquito wrote:

Musigny 151 wrote:Jean Michel Cazes made lovely wines: less convinced by the glossier ones made by Jean Charles.

What year did Charles take over?

In 2006.

I opted to categorize Lynch Bages as a 2nd growth as while it certainly can and does elicit Super Second consideration in vintages such as 83, 85 or 89 and then again more recently with the 96 and the 00, but the problem for me is the inconsistency or mediocrity in some of the lesser vintages.

Nicklasss wrote:

Blanquito wrote:1982-1990, LB was a super second, maybe even first growth quality with simply tremendous wines in 82, 83, 85, 86, 88, 89 and 90.

Come on Pat. Was Trump your favorite, maybe even First Growth President?

As excellent or touching Heaven has been Lynch Bages some specific vintages, never really challenging First Growth. The 89 is the only one i can think of starting challenging First Growth, BUT... what else?

Nic

I guess one could readily pick one or two first growths that were better (maybe even much better) than Lynch in that 82-90 string, but I could pick 3 which were worse. It’s probably unfair to pick on Latour in that era, but except for the 82 and 90, I find Lynch better, even much better, in the rest of the vintages. The 83, 86 and 88 Lynch are better than Haut Brion in those years I think (never had the 85 Haut Brion). Similar things could be said about Margaux (88 and 89) and Mouton (89 and 90? Lame). Maybe that’s the point — in that era, in any given vintage, for my palate, I think the Lynch could compete with the Firsts.

What say we, BWE?

It looks like this race can be called early.

Yes I don’t think even Trump would contest this one.

Just to play devil's advocate, I thought we were supposed to put more weight on recent vintages and instead we're judging Lynch Bages on its performance more than 30 years ago. Lynch has been mediocre since the eighties from the few vintages I had.

I am just trying to find consistency here, why should Lynch be a second for wines of the eighties but not Gruaud Larose? GL was awesome then, in my book at least as good in some 80s vintages, not much worse in others and has performed better since imo.

I was thinking the same : what to think about Gruaud Larose and Pichon Lalande that were on a par or better than Lynch Bages on the 1979-1988 streak (of course, Lynch was better in 1989)?

Nic

By the way, if we would do a classification of BWE members, i think I would be a Fifth Growth. No shame, like Cantemerle, Grand-Puy Lacoste, Lynch Bages or Pontet Canet!

Nic

I think Lynch was as good as any of those it is compared against in the 1980s - Pichon Lalande, Gruaud-Larose or Cos D’Estournel.

All my recent experiences with Lynch have been magical. A 1982 that Tim brought to my house, a 1986, which was incredible, a 1995 which won a horizontal, a 2004, likewise; the 2000, the 2016.

Lynch has been on a very hot streak lately, especially since the 2016 vintage where it is on a par with the stellar Pichons in that year. Farr Vintners rated the Lynch 2019 19/20 as high as Lafite, Mouton, Margaux and Cheval Blanc, and a point higher than Pichon Baron, VCC and a point and a half higher than Pichon Lalande.

I bought three and a half cases of the 2019, the spiritual successor to the 1989. I accept that BWE would rather peg this as a generic second but it is really super second in quality.

The 2019 is a blend of 70% Cabernet Sauvignon, 24% Merlot and 3% each of Petit Verdot and Cabernet Franc. The wine will be aged for 18 months in 70% new French oak, and has an abv of 14%. Harvest began on 23rd September with Merlot and ended with the Cabernet Sauvignon and Petit Verdot on 9th October. Very deep, saturated purple in colour. The nose is rich and brooding, full of cassis, graphite, cedar and bitter cocoa. The palate has spectacular drive, with intense and focused cassis fruit at the core. The tannins are bold, mouthcoating and very grippy but fully ripe. They match the great density of the fruit, adding great depth. Layer upon layer of fruit and spice build to a spectacular, muscular finish that is extremely long and perfectly balanced. A true vin de garde that will be one of the longest lived in 2019. Outstanding.
Score: 19 Farr Vintners, Farr Tasting, May 2020

Comte Flaneur wrote:
I bought three and a half cases of the 2019, the spiritual successor to the 1989. I accept that BWE would rather peg this as a generic second but it is really super second in quality.

Ian, you have tempted me to buy my first futures purchase ever. (Which I always stray from, due to little recourse with a retaile by paying that far ahead of time, tariff issues and just the fact that you can usually get wine close to futures price on the open market later on).

What were you able to get those 2019 Lynch Bages for in the UK/Europe? I am seeing them at $90US here.

Ps, again apologies if this is not the forum for this question, I just respond in the thread that I see the post in. Happy to delete or move it elsewhere if we are trying to keep these threads on point.

Comte Flaneur wrote:I think Lynch was as good as any of those it is compared against in the 1980s - Pichon Lalande, Gruaud-Larose or Cos D’Estournel.

All my recent experiences with Lynch have been magical. A 1982 that Tim brought to my house, a 1986, which was incredible, a 1995 which won a horizontal, a 2004, likewise; the 2000, the 2016.

Lynch has been on a very hot streak lately, especially since the 2016 vintage where it is on a par with the stellar Pichons in that year. Farr Vintners rated the Lynch 2019 19/20 as high as Lafite, Mouton, Margaux and Cheval Blanc, and a point higher than Pichon Baron, VCC and a point and a half higher than Pichon Lalande.

I bought three and a half cases of the 2019, the spiritual successor to the 1989. I accept that BWE would rather peg this as a generic second but it is really super second in quality.

The 2019 is a blend of 70% Cabernet Sauvignon, 24% Merlot and 3% each of Petit Verdot and Cabernet Franc. The wine will be aged for 18 months in 70% new French oak, and has an abv of 14%. Harvest began on 23rd September with Merlot and ended with the Cabernet Sauvignon and Petit Verdot on 9th October. Very deep, saturated purple in colour. The nose is rich and brooding, full of cassis, graphite, cedar and bitter cocoa. The palate has spectacular drive, with intense and focused cassis fruit at the core. The tannins are bold, mouthcoating and very grippy but fully ripe. They match the great density of the fruit, adding great depth. Layer upon layer of fruit and spice build to a spectacular, muscular finish that is extremely long and perfectly balanced. A true vin de garde that will be one of the longest lived in 2019. Outstanding.
Score: 19 Farr Vintners, Farr Tasting, May 2020

Not sure who tastes at Farr, but their notes and mine are never particularly close. For example, their appetite for modern Saint Emilion is far greater than mine. In short, as Mr. Micawber would put it, I would never buy anything based on their recommendation.

It does make sense to base an updated classification on more recent vintages, a task many of us cannot do well given how few of the recent vintages we’ve tried.

To my mind and personal biases, the great estates either restored, maintained or made their reputations in the 80s — to be sure, some of these reps were lost in later years with subpar winemaking, but in general how a Chateau performed in the golden age of Bordeaux is the place to begin. Knowing these wines well helps as well of course...

I can recall vividly those bottles of the 82 Gruaud and 86 Lynch Jacques brought to Denver a few years ago... true to form, the Gruaud was magical and thrilling, certainly the best Gruaud I’ve had... but to my surprise, the 86 Lynch was only a half step behind in quality and perhaps even tied if you prefer a more masculine style wine. And Lynch kept it going through 1988-1990 while Gruaud stumbled after the 86 vintage (I’m not much of a fan of the 88-90 Gruaud, the one time I had the 90 I actually found it flabby and one dimensional). Don’t get me wrong — the 82-86 Gruaud are a amongst my favorites and unlike the Lynch these vintages (except the 82) were and are largely affordable in the auction market.

JoelD wrote:

Comte Flaneur wrote:
I bought three and a half cases of the 2019, the spiritual successor to the 1989. I accept that BWE would rather peg this as a generic second but it is really super second in quality.

Ian, you have tempted me to buy my first futures purchase ever. (Which I always stray from, due to little recourse with a retaile by paying that far ahead of time, tariff issues and just the fact that you can usually get wine close to futures price on the open market later on).

What were you able to get those 2019 Lynch Bages for in the UK/Europe? I am seeing them at $90US here.

Ps, again apologies if this is not the forum for this question, I just respond in the thread that I see the post in. Happy to delete or move it elsewhere if we are trying to keep these threads on point.

Joel, I paid £390-400/6 ex tax, so I would suggest $90 is a good price.

As to Mark’s point Farr Vintners is one of the biggest players in the market with international clients who have more money than sense. If you read through the weeds of their tastings they are simetimes pretty scathing about the likes of Pavie in their annual tastings. But they are quite discreet about it. See here for example, scroll to St-Emilion:

https://www.farrvintners.com/blog.php?blog=246

I think they are a credible source of tasting notes.

Thanks Ian, I will consider. Would be nice if the stupid tariffs were just repealed already.

Guess we know who voted Lynch for 5th, our fearless leader! I'm confused, how can the producer of your favorite wine ever, not be at least a 4th growth?

JoelD wrote:Thanks Ian, I will consider. Would be nice if the stupid tariffs were just repealed already.

Guess we know who voted Lynch for 5th, our fearless leader! I'm confused, how can the producer of your favorite wine ever, not be at least a 4th growth?

But it is his top Fifth Growth! Seriously, Jim will come back to Earth one day or another with his beloved Lynch Bages. I can't believe he is fair when he puts Lynch Bages below Armailhac, Kirwan, Lascombes or Lagrange.

And look at which position he puts Grand-Puy Lacoste

I put de Lamarque in there for sentimental reasons.