President Trump

[JimHow]

Chris:
I didn't bring up HATE for Hillary.
It was you who referred to my words as "hate speech" because I dared to criticize your candidate.

That's not hatred, its a rational viewpoint developed through direct observation.

Says who. You?

MY observations on Hillary are a rational viewpoint developed through direct observation.

I know the Democratic elites are so much more intelligent than the rest of us plebeians.
I recall the smugness here when the Trump shit was hitting the fan and I kept trying to tell everyone that this race was far from over. The arrogance of the Democratic Party was a big part of its demise and from everything I'm seeing they are doomed to repeat their failures in the years ahead.

[Blanquito]

I see:
So if you are against Trump you don't "hate" him.
But if you are against Hillary, you are a "Hillary hater."
Got it.

Jim, my comments about Hillary hate weren't directed at you or any one person, it's a shorthand for how she has been treated in public since the 90's, mostly due to rightwing agitprop.

I am perfectly willing to hate Trump if it comes to that, he just hasn't evoked that feeling in me yet.

[AKR]

Plenty of smugness on the right side of the aisle too, when Karl Rove was telling all everyone that DJT was just a spring fling, and that by the time people sobered up they would come home to one of his establishment retread consulting clients (pick one).

======

It does seem apparent to me that the stress of the presidency and the travel / meetings are getting to Trump. He seems to be acting increasingly irrational. My wife says when people stop in mid sentence because they have forgotten a word that can be a sign of mental degradation.

=======

Also, rather excellently, the property he resides in NYC, a trophy apartment building, the kind with 10k/mo apartments, has had to go begging to find tenants. One can now get a 1 bedroom there for $5500/mo, which is a giveaway for that neighborhood. It has gotten so vexatious for residents with protesters, security screenings, and no more deliveries/pickups, that people aren't renewing. At that kind of rent, people aren't expecting to have to go pick up their own drycleaning anymore!

[DavidG]

Ah well, just when I get down, I read this story about my nephew Jack in the local newspaper and his school project on the Holocaust:

http://www.sunjournal.com/news/lewiston ... st/2067084

Stories like this and the marches are reassuring that there is still hope for life during and after a Trump administration. I just hope we can limit the amount of damage he can do.

[Racer Chris]

Chris:
I didn't bring up HATE for Hillary.
It was you who referred to my words as "hate speech" because I dared to criticize your candidate.

That's not hatred, its a rational viewpoint developed through direct observation.

Says who. You?

MY observations on Hillary are a rational viewpoint developed through direct observation.

I know the Democratic elites are so much more intelligent than the rest of us plebeians.
I recall the smugness here when the Trump shit was hitting the fan and I kept trying to tell everyone that this race was far from over. The arrogance of the Democratic Party was a big part of its demise and from everything I'm seeing they are doomed to repeat their failures in the years ahead.

I used that term because I read what appeared to be a litany of insults, not an informed opinion.
I subsequently amended my statement because I agreed that the term was excessive.

It cracks me up to think I might be considered an elite, but maybe I don't know what it means.

Both my parents grew up on farms in northern Minnesota.
I don't have a college degree. I work with my hands to make a living, and I've never had a personal annual income above $60,000 (well below that in most years.)
I live in a rural area, although it's only 15 minutes from the big city (Hartford). My town has it's share of rednecks.
Until recently I drove an older pickup truck to work every day.

OTOH, I did go to catholic high school, and grew up in a progressive bedroom community (suburb of Hartford).
I subscribed to the Litchfield County Times for a few years, maybe that makes me an elite.

Actually I'm not too concerned with being thought of as an elite.
After all, the blue states export money to the red states at the federal level. We must be doing something right.

[jal]

Could you guys please stop? I don't care about the Clintons anymore, I don't want to hear about them anymore. We have more pressing matters. We have a nut case in the White House and he doesn't know what he's doing, or even worse, he knows exactly what he's doing : http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN15C0KX
This is terrifying. First illegal immigrants, followed by legal immigrants with a green card, then Americans with dual citizenship, then Americans born in Muslim countries, until we target Americans whose parents were born in Muslim countries. Where does this lead? Where does it end?

[DavidG]

Jacque's right. This is terrifying. Steve Bannon's no longer just a hackneyed alt-right blogger, he's got a direct feed into policy creation. A disenfranchised electorate has put a lunatic in the White House. Sounding more and more like 1930s Germany. I'm getting more, not less, nervous about the ability and willingness of Congress and the courts to reign in this megalomaniac.

[DavidG]

Things seem to be coming to a head rather quickly, with the intl terminals at airports around the US in turmoil as Customs and Border Patrol are detaining people, lawyers have volunteered to help on-scene, a Federal judge or two has issued an order to allow detainees access to lawyers despite Trump's order, CBP agents in at least one instance have said they report to Trump, not the judge, and there's been a report (not confirmed) that Federal Marshals have been instructed to enforce the judge's order.

And CNN reports this as an enthusiastic desire to deliver on campaign promises combined with inexperience among the Trump staff. No comment from them on the intentional power grab? What happens when he decides to deliver on his "bomb the sh!t out of them" pledge?

If that's not enough for a Constitutional crisis, how about Trump booting the Director of National Intelligence and the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair from regular seats on the NSC,and giving Steve Bannon a seat? You know, the chief strategist whose strategy for Holocaust Remembrance Day was to intentionally exclude mention of Jewish slaughter because it would be unfair to the millions of others who died. Hey, if you can't get away with Holocaust denial on Holocaust Remembrance Day, maybe you can redefine its symbolism. The Nazis must be loving this.

Substitute Climate Scientists and Muslims for Socialists and Trade Unionists below and here we are. Thank God people are speaking out.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist..

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[JimHow]

We'll come on Jacques you don't get to criticize the Clintons ad nauseum and then decide when the debate stops. That's Trump-like. There's plenty of blame to go around for why what was a very positive two year discussion has turned personal and insulting. It's a microcosm of what our country has become. This thread, like the country, has become Lord of the Flies. It's what the hate-mongers in the Trump team want to see. My latest criticisms of Team Clinton were in response to David' and Chris's very recent continued blaming of the Trump presidency on the likes of that bastion of Republicanism, the New York Times. I get the angst of the Clinton supporters, they are seeing, too late, the errors of their ways in blocking Bernie from the presidency. They have reaped what they have sewn. A big cause of the Donald Trump prresidency is the superdelegate system of the Democratic National Committee. Hopefully that will be changed next time around. In any event, it's going to be a wild ride. I came through JFK on Thursday on an Emirates flight from Dubai filled with Muslims. I got stopped at customs (for the fourth time in the last few months). Having spent the past week in Thailand and Dubai I have sensed zero animosity from Muslim travelers. This is pure racism from Trump and his team.

[jal]

But this is no longer a debate, Jim. You and I agree. My point on the Hillary was made long ago, she stinks but she would have been a survivable event as opposed to Trump who may bring us to an apocalypse. I decided long ago to vote for her for that reason and you reached the same conclusion eventually. At that point though, she and Bill are yesterday's news. I will no longer dwell on them because that point has been made and it doesn't help anyone.

Trump, though, is the big issue, his first week in office has been bad enough but I imagine much worse is to come.

[Blanquito]

If that's not enough for a Constitutional crisis, how about Trump booting the Director of National Intelligence and the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair from regular seats on the NSC,and giving Steve Bannon a seat? You know, the chief strategist whose strategy for Holocaust Remembrance Day was to intentionally exclude mention of Jewish slaughter because it would be unfair to the millions of others who died. Hey, if you can't get away with Holocaust denial on Holocaust Remembrance Day, maybe you can redefine its symbolism. The Nazis must be loving this.[/i]

I hadn't heard about this. How long will we let this go on? What can be done? The worst case scenario of a Trump presidency -- that he meant all of the crazy and hateful things that he said, that he'll stop at nothing to get his way-- seems all too likely to happen. A full blown constitutional crisis is not out of the question-- imagine what Trump would do if he was impeached?

[DavidG]

Jim, I think Jacques' point is that it's too late and of no consequence to keep debating why and how Clinton lost to Trump (or, I would add, how Sanders lost to Clinton). I agree with him in that the immediate concern is Trump's recklessness.

You make the more important longer-term point that the Ds need a new paradigm. We are so far behind, especially in the states where the power to create Congressional districts and electoral college protocols rests. But you have to forgive us for focusing on the more immediate disastrous effects of a Trump Presidency.

As to making this personal, I hope I haven't been disparaging of any of those posting here, even when we disagree.

[DavidG]

And now a White House leaker has tweeted that Trump is preparing papers to order the IRS to end its audit. Fake? True? If true, what are the legal implications?

[Racer Chris]

As to making this personal, I hope I haven't been disparaging of any of those posting here, even when we disagree.

I echo this, and if anything I wrote came across that way I apologize.

[JimHow]

David itvwas as recently as yesterday that you were complaining about the New York Times.
And it was just the other day that Jacques was responding to Timmy's defenses of Hillary.
So let's not make it sound like I'm bringing up arguments from months ago.
You guys continue to make these arguments as recently as the past 24 hours.
So please let's not self righteously try to argue that you guys aren't full throatedly continuing to participate in the Hillary post mortem.
Not only here but all over the place Clinton supporters continue to blame everyone but Clinton for her loss.
That's a pretty tough one to swallow, and I'll continue to respond when I see that argument made.

[tim]

Since my name was brought up, I will break my commenting freeze and respond.

My defense of Hillary was in a direct response to what I considered to be an unjustified attack on her. I agree that there is really no point in rehashing too much of the loss. The primary reason for the loss was not Hillary, it was not Sanders, it was the geographic distribution of the voters. It is debatable whether or not Sanders would have won. You can make solid arguments in either direction (although I clearly believe he would have lost badly). But since he wasn't running against Trump, it is moot.

One other comment regarding Hillary: I can completely understand progressives who are critical of Hillary due to policy differences. She is more of a centrist, always has been. And there were deep policy differences between she and Bernie. My objection is when people on the left began adopting right wing talking points to disparage her character. Bernie had a LOT of character flaws as well. He didn't hold down a real job during his entire twenties. He didn't fully financially support his son during that time. Those two things bother me greatly. But had he won the primary, I would have supported him without reservation in the general election against Trump.

I have also disparaged Trump supporters and some voters. And I don't take that back. Trump represents all of the bad parts of America. The racism, the sexism, the xenophobia. The obsession with wealth, the cheating and lying to get ahead, the different standards for wealthy versus poor. The grandstanding, the obsession with celebrities, the disinterest in science. I do understand that some people are diehard Republicans that for policy reasons will always support the Republican candidate. But for the general electorate to elect Trump, it reveals a disease that lurks within the US that is much scarier than partisan politics. It needs to be called out for what it is, including when it is based on hate, ignorance or stupidity (i.e. lack of intelligence).

[DavidG]

David itvwas as recently as yesterday that you were complaining about the New York Times.
And it was just the other day that Jacques was responding to Timmy's defenses of Hillary.
So let's not make it sound like I'm bringing up arguments from months ago.
You guys continue to make these arguments as recently as the past 24 hours.
So please let's not self righteously try to argue that you guys aren't full throatedly continuing to participate in the Hillary post mortem.
Not only here but all over the place Clinton supporters continue to blame everyone but Clinton for her loss.
That's a pretty tough one to swallow, and I'll continue to respond when I see that argument made.

Yes these are all recent arguments. It's ok if you're not ready to let go of this aspect of the debate yet, Jim, but I've said all I have to say about the press playing a role in Clinton's loss. I realize we have different views and are not going to change them. I am ready to move on. If that sounds self-righteous to you I would suggest that you may be making this more personal than it needs to be.

I'll continue to fault the media for making excuses for Trump's current actions.

[jal]

And it was just the other day that Jacques was responding to Timmy's defenses of Hillary.

In no way did I respond to Tim's defense of Hillary. I was (and still am) offended at the way Tim said I formed my opinions. I also said that he needs to listen to the other side instead of insulting them. But I don't have a problem with anyone's opinions being different than mine.
If you want to continue this past mortem of her loss, please go ahead. I just think it's counter productive at this point, and since I made my point several times there is no reason for me to continue dwelling on it. Like David, I am ready to move on.

[Blanquito]

Based on polling, it is clear (most) of the country would like a do-over at this point.

[tim]

Jacques, I would like to take back my apology to you. You seriously are making me reconsider my BWE convention participation this year. You took offense because I criticized your interpretation of a rather innocuous Clinton permit kerfuffle, and that your interpretation was based on preconceived notions. If you can't handle the criticism, don't post your opinions. But this whole "I will ignore you because I feel offended" is a bit much. I mostly stopped posting as an olive branch to you because you felt wronged. But you don't seem to want to let it go.

Politics is an ugly business. Mixing politics and alcohol is often a recipe for disaster. I have many friends who do not share my political opinions. I do my best to not let the political difference influence those friendships, even when we have very heated debates. One of my most valued BWE memories is having a political discussion with Arv on the streets of NYC with a bottle of Yquem after the NYC Convention. And we are definitely political opposites.

So, all I can say is, lighten up everyone.

[AKR]

[Gerry M.]

Since my name was brought up, I will break my commenting freeze and respond.

My defense of Hillary was in a direct response to what I considered to be an unjustified attack on her. I agree that there is really no point in rehashing too much of the loss. The primary reason for the loss was not Hillary, it was not Sanders, it was the geographic distribution of the voters. It is debatable whether or not Sanders would have won. You can make solid arguments in either direction (although I clearly believe he would have lost badly). But since he wasn't running against Trump, it is moot.

One other comment regarding Hillary: I can completely understand progressives who are critical of Hillary due to policy differences. She is more of a centrist, always has been. And there were deep policy differences between she and Bernie. My objection is when people on the left began adopting right wing talking points to disparage her character. Bernie had a LOT of character flaws as well. He didn't hold down a real job during his entire twenties. He didn't fully financially support his son during that time. Those two things bother me greatly. But had he won the primary, I would have supported him without reservation in the general election against Trump.

I have also disparaged Trump supporters and some voters. And I don't take that back. Trump represents all of the bad parts of America. The racism, the sexism, the xenophobia. The obsession with wealth, the cheating and lying to get ahead, the different standards for wealthy versus poor. The grandstanding, the obsession with celebrities, the disinterest in science. I do understand that some people are diehard Republicans that for policy reasons will always support the Republican candidate. But for the general electorate to elect Trump, it reveals a disease that lurks within the US that is much scarier than partisan politics. It needs to be called out for what it is, including when it is based on hate, ignorance or stupidity (i.e. lack of intelligence).

Tim, with all due respect, you cannot divorce Hillary or the Democrats in general from accountability for the "geographic distribution of the voters". She campaigned primarily on the left and the right coasts where her money sources were. She virtually ignored campaigning in the middle of the country with the exception of Chicago. She left rural America in the dust not unlike the rest of the Democratic Party.

Just to be clear, I voted for Clinton as an anti-Trump vote since he's as vile a human being as there is on the planet but I also cannot stand Hillary for both some of her policy stances and her arrogance and feeling of entitlement towards the nomination.

Your last statement "But for the general electorate to elect Trump, it reveals a disease that lurks within the US that is much scarier than partisan politics. It needs to be called out for what it is, including when it is based on hate, ignorance or stupidity" troubles me. While I do believe much of what you say, I believe it's going too far and ignoring a very legitimate frustration with a large segment of the middle class who feel the Democratic party has abandoned them.

The Democrats have a real problem and cannot continue to stick their head in the sand and ignore the reality. If it were virtually any other Republican candidate other than Trump that ran against Clinton she would have been swamped. They've lost a lot of credibility and that's no ones fault other than their own. If they choose to be led by the likes of Debra Wasserman Schultz and Donna Brazile then they will continue to have a problem. Trump is going to give the Democrats the chance to regain their footing only if they honestly address the reasons why they lost other than just blaming it all on "stupid/ignorant" people. If what you say is true then the Democrats are doomed to never win another election and hopefully that's not the case.

[tim]

Gerry, with all due respect and while I understand your argument, I disagree on a number of fronts.

Again, I disagree with the characterization of Hillary as arrogant. This is where the cherry-picking of evidence comes into play. But Hillary is the punching bag for the moment, so let's skip that. And like with the assessment of how Bernie would have fared against Trump, the guess of how Hillary would have fared against another Republican is speculation at best. And I can put up a pretty strong argument that she would have won against another Republican. So let's skip that too.

The issue of "geographic distribution of voters" isn't an opinion, it is fact. It is the only reason she lost. She won the popular vote by a wide margin. She lost because of the geography of those voters with respect to the Electoral College.

In terms of her campaigning, she spent a lot of time campaigning in Pennsylvania and Florida, two states that she lost. She did not campaign as much in Michigan and Wisconsin as she should have. And that was definitely a mistake. Of course based on the polls, it seemed like the right decision at the time. Politicians rely on those polls to determine where to focus their efforts. How many times did Obama campaign in Michigan in 2012? (Answer: zero) He did, however, do a lot of campaigning in Wisconsin. It is the nature of the campaign.

Now I do agree that many in the country believe that the Democrats have abandoned them. My problem is twofold. First, the core supporters of Donald Trump are part of a white nationalism movement. This is something that should concern everyone. Second, those that voted for Donald Trump over Hillary for other than purely partisan reasons did so despite the lies and the white nationalism. They did so despite virtually every newspaper in America telling them why it was a bad idea and how unfit he was for the Presidency. The rest of the issues really don't matter. Clinton doesn't matter. The DNC doesn't matter. Nor does the RNC for that matter. If it was simply a matter of Democrats being out of touch, then the GOP would have selected a different nominee. There is something more fundamentally wrong with the country. And there are dark days ahead.

[tim]

I'm going to try to go back on my commentary freeze again. I really don't like getting into conflicts with other BWE'ers, especially over politics. It isn't my intention to offend people, especially as I do not subscribe to political correctness. Yes, I said "Stupid Americans" in a post that was mostly about getting out frustration. I didn't not mean it in an absolute literal sense. Not all Americans are stupid. Not all Trump voters are stupid. Most of the endless analysis of the election is only reinforcing what people already believed before the election happened. The destructive nature of politics creates collateral damage, and I prefer not to inflict any of that damage on BWE.

[Gerry M.]

Tim, no offence taken. While I still disagree with some of your points I won't argue them and I respect your opinion. I agree with your sentiment that politics carries the risk of collateral damage. I have deliberately steered clear of much political discussion since I have various friends who supported Trump and I value friendship more than politics and frankly at the present time there is nothing to be gained by debating the matter.

[DavidG]

An interesting Venezuelan perspective on how to defeat a populist:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... 443d0d233f

The importance of connecting with voters is emphasized, similar to what Jim and Jacques have been saying.

The theme that resistance is futile and only strengthens the populist is discouraging and creepily reminiscent of the Borg from Star Trek. Will we really have to suffer 4 years of damage under this Bozo?

[JimHow]

Regardless of Hillary, or the New York Times, or whatever...

That's one crazy mother fucker we got in there right now.

[Blanquito]

You seriously are making me reconsider my BWE convention participation this year.

This is unacceptable, even Sad! If I were BD, I would order your attendance and guarantee you some late night spirited and refreshing political discourse in the street (washed down with d'Yquem) at BWE SF '17. Not to mention all the great claret you can drink. If you don't come, this would be one of the worst things that has happened so far because of trump's "election" (and you and I've never met in person). Come while you can still get a visa.

[AKR]

Regardless of Hillary, or the New York Times, or whatever...

That's one crazy mother fucker we got in there right now.

Just *one* ? I think there's more.

He has lots of enablers, starting with his wife and family.

Melania put him up to this whole idea to begin with.

[DavidG]

Trump following through on his campaign pledge to kill the terrorists and their families.

Navy Seal and 8-year-old daughter of Anwar Al Awlaki killed in Trump-ordered raid in Yemen:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/seal- ... ry-n714346

We have a shameless mobster/monster in the Oval Office.

[DavidG]

Regardless of Hillary, or the New York Times, or whatever...

That's one crazy mother fucker we got in there right now.

I agree with everything you say here.

[Racer Chris]

So is Malignant Narcissism considered a neurosis or a psychosis?

[Phil David]

15,000 people were killed by guns in the US last year.

Given the new administration's apparent concerns for the safety of Americans, will we see strict gun laws and extreme vetting for gun licences introduced from next week?

[AKR]

I think he is studying Chicago/Chiraq, which seems to be a case study for the carnage going on in America.

It seems like the Mayor and the police have totally lost control of the situation there.

Very Sad!

[JimHow]

Text exchange with my right wing buddy Ray here in Lewiston last night:

ME:
I know he's your boy, but...,
That's one crazy mother fucker we got in there right now.

RAY:
Remain calm, the hysteria is symbolic of progressive brats when an adult finally shows up in the room

ME:
I'm breathing hard, trying not to panic over the impending end of civilization

RAY:
Its ok we are in charge now

[AKR]

I read today that the 'extreme vetting' procedures will basically be some kind of test, with questions on what potential immigrants think of sharia law etc.

That doesn't sound very tough to me. It doesn't even sound as hard as a DMV drivers license test.

[JimHow]

The Somalis of Lewiston, Maine:

http://www.sunjournal.com/news/lewiston ... an/2068737

[Phil David]

I read today that the 'extreme vetting' procedures will basically be some kind of test, with questions on what potential immigrants think of sharia law etc.

That doesn't sound very tough to me. It doesn't even sound as hard as a DMV drivers license test.

Question 1: You're not from around here, are you, boy?

[JimHow]

LoL

[JimHow]

Sigh. We live in a country where (recently a Mainer) John Roberts is the new "moderate" on the SCOTUS.