Which are the off vintages and which do you like?

[KevinH]

We all know the great vintages and the good ones but what about the others that don’t quite make the mark? There may not be as many as there used to be but there are still some and the difference between an average vintage and an off-vintage is somewhat subjective. So over the past 50 years which would you describe as off vintages? And which do you or would you seek out if the price was right?

I’d say off years are 76,77,79,80,84,87,91,92,93,97,03,07,11,13.

But where do the likes of 81, 94, 99, 06, 12, 17, 21 sit? Good year or off-year?

Of these I think there are some good 79s out there. They were pretty dreadful for the first 20 years but good acidity and enough fruit meant they mellowed into some interesting wines and have lasted well. I have a Batailley 79 lined up for next weekend. The ones I’d like to explore more are 91 and. 93 as I’ve had so few.

[JimHow]

These 79 and 81 Gruauds I've been drinking seem to have been well stored and are performing beautifully.
Some would say that two of my favorite vintages -- 2002 and 2014 -- were off years but I think they are classic beauties on the left back in 2002 and on both sides of the river in 2014.
It has been a long time since I've had any 1991s but I recall Lynch and Pichon Lalande performing very well, and the '91 Latour has been one of my favorite Latours.
It was a 1997 Mouton that I brought to Le Bonne Soup in Midtown Manhattan for lunch circa 2001 when Whuzzup__ and I first met Jacques and Arv, a great day.
I was not as down on the 100% cabernet 2013 La Lagune as others when we had it at the estate in 2015. I subsequently had a half bottle of the 2013 Lagrange second label overlooking the Eiffel Tower and it was lovely.
1993 produced some nice soft spicy wines especially from the northern Medoc, Cos coming immediately to mind.
I have not had great luck with 2006, I drank through a whole case of Haut Bailly and they were pretty disappointing.
I'll be cracking open my case of 2006 Pontet Canet sometime in the next year or two, we'll see if it's any better.

[stefan]

I would not call 79 an off year. Since my son-in-law was born that year, I have bought a number them at auctions that last few years with a very high success rate.

93 is a strange year. Some 93 Bdx have an ethereal bouquet that surpasses the nose of wines from great years. In 93s where that is lacking, the wines are generally not bad but also not interesting.

I was not as down on 03s as most people, but manyI have drunk recently have fallen apart.

I thought the 100% cabernet 2013 La Lagune was a terrible La Lagune, but was not a bad Cab. At least it was better for my taste than most $100 Napa Cabs, but I like La Lagune too much to any 93.

97 produced some nice luncheon clarets. Jim and drank together a lovely Ducru that was being closed out at a restaurant. 87 was also a true vintage, but the wines were awfully light.

In my experience, 2013 Bdx competes with 1984 as the worst vintage since 1980.

Some 81s were very good. Good bottles of Haut Brion were fine, but many bottles were terrible. I did not buy much from 81, not even La Lagune. When we visited with BWE, Ian bought me a bottle of the 81. It was lovely and made me regret not having purchased any myself.

I dislike 94s more than most, I think. I much prefer gambling on 93s. None of the 94s I tried had interesting bouquet or sufficient fruit. Even 92 is higher on my personal scale.

99, 06, and 12 are all OK vintages. I don't seek them out, but don't avoid them. I didn't like any 17 I tasted. I have not drunk any 21.

[Comte Flaneur]

I am going back a bit beyond 50 years Kevin, but I have had good luck with 1967, which is considered an off/light vintage. I opened my last bottle of 1967 Haut Brion for a 'Golden Oldies' dinner in London last week and it was absolutely a joy and singing. I have drunk 1967 Latour from magnum, though quite a while ago (1998) and that was very good and more recently a pretty creditable 1967 Rauzan Gazzies (2024). Pomerol in general and Petrus in particular I think did well in 1967.

The year 1969 was one of the most memorable in the 20th century but not for Bordeaux, though I have drunk very good bottles of Ch Margaux and Leoville Lascases from this vintage.

I don't think 1971 is an off vintage, and there are some gems on the right bank. I still have a bottle of 1971 Le Bon Pasteur - which is actually part St-Emilion.

In the 1973 and 1974 vintages you can sometimes get lucky but there are many more misses than hits...1972 I don't know...

...1976 was solid, but stolid and early drinking. Mouton and Latour weren't bad, but Lafite was wotv. I still have one or two to open this year including Ducru and Magdelaine.

With 1977 and 1980 I have very little experience...and it is 30 years since I tried something from 1984

I agree with stefan on 1979 - remember what great wines were made at Ch Margaux, Ch Palmer, Pichon Lalande, HB/LMHB and DDC

I think 1981 is similar in some respects to 1979, very good again in Graves.

In 1987 there was one great wine - Mouton, the Baron obituary label, allegedly doctored with 1986 Mouton...

I have little experience with 1991 and 1992, but I do remember drinking some nice early drinking but skinny 91s a long time ago...93 and 94 are a step up but still mediocre in the grand scheme of things...though I have had some pleasant 1993s...Pontet Canet (at the Alfred Tesseron dinner in London in 2017, the other table had this) and the FGs showed their class in the LHR first class lounge...but that was a long time ago....if you have any 94s they really need drinking - even Latour - but the oddball in this vintage, which will last a long time is Mouton.

I have had some lovely 1997s, like Ch Margaux, while Lafite is a serious wine in this vintage.

The 1998 Medocs could plausibly be considered to be an off vintage given the biblical deluge they had around the harvest...

There are no poor vintages after than IMHO apart from 2003 - burnt out/cracking up - and 2013.

[Comte Flaneur]

My vintage assessment from 2000:

Stupendous: 2009, 2010, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2022
Outstanding: 2000, 2005, 2015, 2018
Good: 2001, 2002 (left bank only), 2004, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2023
OK but not great: 2006, 2011, 2017, 2021, 2024
Decidedly mixed: 2007
Outright poor: 2003, 2013

[stefan]

Oh, yeah, Ian; 1967 Haut-Brion. This is the first First Growth I bought, in 1970. It was $8 and well worth the price. It was so good that I went back and bought some 1964 Haut-Brion for $10. It was a large step up from the 1967.

[KevinH]

By off-vintage successes in recent years

Ch de Pressac 1956
Ch Latour 1967
Ch Leoville Poyferre 1967
Ch St Pierre Sevaistre 1973
Ch Margaux 1977
Ch Grand Puy Lacoste 1991
Ch Grand Puy Lacoste 1993
Ch Clinet 1993
Ch Batailley 1998

[Comte Flaneur]

Oh, yeah, Ian; 1967 Haut-Brion. This is the first First Growth I bought, in 1970. It was $8 and well worth the price. It was so good that I went back and bought some 1964 Haut-Brion for $10. It was a large step up from the 1967.

I bought a batch of 5 or 6 of these at auction, and two of them went down the sink, but this last one had the best ullage and was the best one - ‘light on its feet, ethereal and nuanced, cool-fruited and woodsy, with cigar box and tobacco notes leading the orchestra. A beautifully mature Haut-Brion’ - 95 pts. I bought a similar batch of 71 Haut Brions which were slightly more consistent (less inconsistent). I didn’t pay much for either batch…around £50 pb iirc.

That 1967 wasn’t the wine of the night at our Golden Oldies dinner. That accolade went to Borgogno Barolo Riserva 1943

[attachment=0]

The wine in the glass is the Borgogno not the Haut Brion.

Other clarets/Bordeaux we had that night were quite a long way behind the 1967 Haut Brion.

A 1970 Lascases was good but actually a bit wobbly and not as good as the 1975 Kevin and I enjoyed last year.

A 1970 Montrose had a good nose but was pretty gone on the palate

A 1982 Cissac was pristine, fully mature with trademark pencil lead and cigar box notes, but little complexity

A 1995 DDC Blanc was oxidised and a 1988 magnum of De Fieuzal Blanc was corked

[DavidG]

I’ve had enough good ‘79s and ‘81s to put them on my good but choose carefully list.

I didn’t much care for ‘91-‘94, ‘03, ‘07, ‘11, or ‘13. Didn’t sample much from most of those years, so there may well be good ones I missed. Other than the ‘07s, which were supposed to be early and easy drinking “luncheon clarets.” I don’t recall enough details of those “luncheon clarets” to properly criticize them other than to say they were utterly forgettable.

[JimHow]

Nicolas, Danny, and I really liked the 2011 Calon Segur in Quebec a few years ago.

[KevinH]

Luncheon clarets is interesting. Usually means lighter wines that are slightly dilute and rain affected from a wet harvest time rather than a poor summer when green under ripeness and signs of rot can show itself. Generally they serve one role for me: to have with roast chicken where I might otherwise have Burgundy.

[AlexR]

I must admit to being allergic to the expression "off vintage"
Why is that?
For the same reason I don't like talk of "years of the century" and suchlike.
Wines should stand on their merits. and I am sure their wines from derided vintages cited abive that anyone here would find delightful... and not just

[AlexR]

I must admit to being allergic to the expression "off vintage"
Why is that?
For the same reason I don't like talk of "years of the century" and suchlike.
Wines should stand on their merits. and I am sure that there are wines from derided vintages cited abive that anyone here would find delightful... and not just "serviceable".

AR

[Nicklasss]

Jim is right. I liked many Bordeaux from 2011 : Calon Segur, Clinet, Pontet Canet, Leoville Las Cases, Haut Brion, Yquem.

I also liked some 2012 like Rauzan Ségla, Beausejour-Duffau, Vieux Château Certan, Sociando Mallet, Leoville Las Cases and La Mission Haut Brion (marvellous).

Many 2002, 2008, 1999 and 2017 were excellent too.

[JimHow]

I'm with Alex, in my experience these so called off vintages often are pleasant surprises. They may get lost in tastings with other vintages, but in an appropriate setting (like a restaurant) on appropriate occasions (like my 2013 Fiefs de Lagrange with French cheese overlooking the Eiffel Tower) they are often very pleasant. Alfred Tesseron told us that his one regret about the 2013 Pontet Canet was that they did not produce more.

[DavidG]

I too agree with Alex.

The concept of "off vintages" stopped having much practical utility for me once I stopped buying en primeur. Before then, purchases were made based on critics' barrel tasting impressions. They weren't as useful as later release notes, or even better, opportunities to taste the wines myself. So it was helpful to have an idea about the general characteristics of a vintage when making en primeur purchase decisions based on limited info.

Once the marketplace removed the financial incentive for en primeur purchases, I waited until wines were released to make most of my Bordeaux purchases. As Alex put it so well, the wines stood on their own. The concept of a great or an off vintage lost most of its practical utility.

It's still fun to talk about.

[Claudius2]

We all know the great vintages and the good ones but what about the others that don’t quite make the mark? There may not be as many as there used to be but there are still some and the difference between an average vintage and an off-vintage is somewhat subjective. So over the past 50 years which would you describe as off vintages? And which do you or would you seek out if the price was right?

I’d say off years are 76,77,79,80,84,87,91,92,93,97,03,07,11,13.

But where do the likes of 81, 94, 99, 06, 12, 17, 21 sit? Good year or off-year?

Of these I think there are some good 79s out there. They were pretty dreadful for the first 20 years but good acidity and enough fruit meant they mellowed into some interesting wines and have lasted well. I have a Batailley 79 lined up for next weekend. The ones I’d like to explore more are 91 and. 93 as I’ve had so few.

Guys
Some of these are not exactly off vintages. Rather some like 76, 79 are pretty good from your first list. From the second, I quite like 81, O6 and some 94s and 99 was serviceable. 2012 is okay particularly in the right bank and 21 is similar.